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Thread: Its time we Balance | Evolution of weapons

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    Lightbulb Its time we Balance | Evolution of weapons

    The motive of this thread is to shed some light on the class imbalance on the basses of facts. There are three major things that affects the class stats: the most important one are the weapons, followed by armors and helms.

    This thread is going to be about weapons. For this demonstration I have chosen Mythic rarity, the weapons used are: Aegis for Warriors, Staffs for Mage and Daggers for Rogues. Why Mythic? Well as per my research they fit perfectly between Legendary and Arcanes. The main and secondary stats are always kept same for all Mythic weapons around all classes, with DPS and Armor as variables. If you like you can perform the same tests on Legendary and Arcanes of the same level range, and you will certainly get almost same results.

    My motive is to show that these variables are not balanced correctly, but understand that when I say "balance" I do not mean that they are suppose to be of equal value, what I mean is that there should be a baseline for every class and the increments should be of equal proportions.

    Now that you understand the nature of this thread, lets move to the analytics.

    Damage & Armor Comparison:
    Level 36:
    Damage: Warrior = 115, Mage = 158, Rogue = 170. [Baseline]
    Armor: Warrior = 117, Mage = 41, Rogue 0. [Baseline]

    Level 46:
    Damage: Warrior = 117, Mage = 200, Rogue = 215. [Differential: Warrior = 2, Mage = 42, Rogue = 45]
    Armor: Warrior = 327, Mage = 48, Rogue 48. [Differential: Warrior = 210, Mage = 7, Rogue = 48]

    Level 51:
    Damage: Warrior = 128, Mage = 257, Rogue = 299. [Differential: Warrior = 11, Mage = 57, Rogue = 84]
    Armor: Warrior = 55, Mage = 55, Rogue = 184. [Differential: Warrior = -272, Mage = 7, Rogue = 136]

    Note: Level 57 was a major point for gears, everything got buffed almost 2x+ to match the content difficulty. And as per my research its the possible point in history where the imbalance sprouted.

    Level 60:
    Damage: Warrior = 251, Mage = 466, Rogue = 653. [Differential: Warrior = 123, Mage = 209, Rogue = 354][Possible New Baseline]
    Armor: Warrior = 384, Mage = 0, Rogue = 302. [Differential: Warrior = 329, Mage = -55, Rogue = 118]

    Level 66:
    Damage: Warrior = 301, Mage = 544, Rogue = 761. [Differential: Warrior = 50, Mage = 78, Rogue = 108]
    Armor: Warrior = 493, Mage = 73, Rogue = 402. [Differential: Warrior = 109, Mage = 73, Rogue = 100]

    Level 71:
    Damage: Warrior = 394, Mage = 628, Rogue = 880. [Differential: Warrior = 93, Mage = 84, Rogue = 119]
    Armor: Warrior = 524, Mage = 104, Rogue = 427. [Differential: Warrior = 31, Mage = 31, Rogue = 25]


    Now, looking at all those numbers at once might be a little overwhelming and confusing, so let me simplify it for you and compare the damage and armor difference one by one:

    Damage:

    Attachment 173535 Attachment 173536

    As I mentioned before - Level 57 cap was a major turning point, you can see a good buff there, but does it continue to grow in proportion?
    Here is a graph that shows the damage gap between classes if the initial baseline (Pre Level 57) was taken:

    Attachment 173537

    The damage difference between Rogues and Mage would have been very less, a bit of tuning to parallel the damage difference between Mage and Rogue and a heavy buff for warriors to narrow down the gap a bit would have done the trick.

    Lets see at the Post Level 57 baseline, the present damage gap and how it might look for next 3 level cap:

    Attachment 173538

    This seems wide, and now the damage gap is high between all classes. If you see the trend you will notice that the proportions are not parallel, its increasing exponentially.

    Armor:

    Attachment 173539 Attachment 173540

    Oh boy! now you know why Mages are blue .
    I am not even going to use the Pre Level 57 data on this, I mean for obvious reasons.

    Attachment 173541

    Post Level 57 baseline does show some promising parallels between Rogues and Warriors, but what happened to Mages?
    Also, I am not sure why they started Mages with 0, when they were at 55 on the previous bracket. I do take the shield skill (55% damage reduction for 15sec with a CD of 27sec) into consideration; and I am not asking the armor to be way up there, but I think armor for Mage should get similar justice that Warriors got for damage post level 57 considering they are Tanks.

    In conclusion I personally think that its time we have a new baseline, new proportions that will reduce the gap between classes and ensure a parallel growth in future.
    I feel the damage gap between Rogue and Mage should go down to 100, Mage and Warrior to 200, which makes Warrior and Rogue 300.
    Similarly, the armor gap between Warrior and Rogue to be 100, Rogue and Mage to be 250, which makes Warrior and Mage to be 350.
    But then that's just my point of view, what do you guys think?
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    Amazing work, with facts and statistics to back it up. +1 firm, solid argument.

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    Procs

    /need11

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    Quote Originally Posted by PostNoob View Post
    Procs

    /need11
    Plus Dot and group damage are factors. To say mages are at the bottom is a joke. Rogue is most deffently underpowered as aoe damage is very light. Single target is the only damage output and rogue skills have little survivable besides shield and pierce. So armor is a major necessity especially if party is in a mob setting. I get destroyed in mous while mage procs mobs to oblivian. Come on rogue procs are pretty much a joke. Look even at lvl 46 drag dagers. The proc on that is like 1/50 hits while mages are procing away. Rogues kill bosses and single target mobs, mages kill everything. Opppp
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    Quote Originally Posted by PostNoob View Post
    Procs

    /need11
    Quote Originally Posted by ancestor View Post
    Plus Dot and group damage are factors. To say mages are at the bottom is a joke. Rogue is most deffently underpowered as aoe damage is very light. Single target is the only damage output and rogue skills have little survivable besides shield and pierce. So armor is a major necessity especially if party is in a mob setting. I get destroyed in mous while mage procs mobs to oblivian. Come on rogue procs are pretty much a joke. Look even at lvl 46 drag dagers. The proc on that is like 1/50 hits while mages are procing away. Rogues kill bosses and single target mobs, mages kill everything. Opppp
    Mage procs were too good before the nerfs, now they are useless

    There is no such thing as good mage procs anymore. And plus, if mages have the lowest base damage in the first place, whats wrong with giving them procs to compensate for that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spheresome View Post
    Mage procs were too good before the nerfs, now they are useless

    There is no such thing as good mage procs anymore. And plus, if mages have the lowest base damage in the first place, whats wrong with giving them procs to compensate for that?
    Im not against balance, but to throw a bunch of "on paper stats" out like this doesnt fully give you the grasp of mages damage output. To sit here and not show that side of things and just look at the basic stat of damg isnt fair.

    Mauso is one of the most profitable places in Arlor. Mages Procs there are not good? And for how long has that been? Just because i gave a thanks on this thread, and threw out the word proc, doesn't mean im saying overall mages are the best.

    I commend the op for going through the trouble of putting this together, but its bias imo.

    Do others think its fair to put together data like this without taking into consideration Procs and such? I believe this was put together focusing on just singular aspects. If you buff mages too much, it will just give the problems that exist now, class stacking. If you stack AoE dps(along with a few procs that can be had by them) it would be worse than todays Rogue stacking.

    Too bad there wasnt two classes of damage, magic and physical, armor as well.

    Imo, the main goal of this thread is to buff mages, while not considering all aspects of gameplay. That is why i wouldn't think this is vaulable information. Its nice to see numbers on a screen, but its only half of the equation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PostNoob View Post
    Procs

    /need11
    Procs are similar to skills, but they are variables and are based on RNG. If you check Procs for the weapons included in that test you will notice that even Rogues and Warriors had over powered procs in past, it is one of the reason I chose Mythics. But in the end the gap you see at level 71 are with all weapons with same procs.
    So, when we dicusss the stats we exclude those variables, because the amount of damage and armor procs bring to the table should be decided on the bases of the constants and not the other way round.

    + @Ancestor: Hope the above explains the intentions of the OP. Also, weapons are only the starting point, I will be covering all other aspects in future if time allows me.

    Also, the OP does not suggest that Mage are at the bottom. I am not sure how you got that idea; It only points that the damage and armor is not balanced between classes, I am not sure if you both have read the whole thing properly before commenting.

    As mentioned in the OP, you can get similar trend and curves with Legendary weapons too, they have no Procs.
    Last edited by PsychoNuke; 12-17-2018 at 09:33 PM. Reason: +
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    Too bad you didn't do a flowchart with proc damage. That blue mage line with ds proc would go through the roof

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    Procs and splash damage needs to be taken account of, these stats make mages look like pure trash when they just aren't

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alwarez View Post
    Too bad you didn't do a flowchart with proc damage. That blue mage line with ds proc would go through the roof
    I don't mind including it if you can provide me with that data, and it will be nice if you can also provide me with the data for proc damage for Immo Bow. They both had same proc damage I wonder how it will look on paper. And I see where you are coming from; so, + Post #7.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mod View Post
    Procs and splash damage needs to be taken account of, these stats make mages look like pure trash when they just aren't
    No, because its the same curve for Legendary, there are no procs there. and Post#7 for you too
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoNuke View Post
    Procs are similar to skills, but they are variables and are based on RNG. If you check Procs for the weapons included in that test you will notice that even Rogues and Warriors had over powered procs in past, it is one of the reason I chose Mythics. But in the end the gap you see at level 71 are with all weapons with same procs.
    So, when we dicusss the stats we exclude those variables, because the amount of damage and armor procs bring to the table should be decided on the bases of the constants and not the other way round. Hope the OP makes sense to you now.

    + Ancestor: Hope the above explains the intentions of the OP. Also the OP does not suggest that Mage are at the bottom. I am not sure how you got that idea; It only points that the damage and armor is not balanced between classes, I am not sure if you read the whole thing properly before commenting. Also, weapons are only the starting point, I will be covering all other aspects in future if time allows me.

    As mentioned in the OP, you can get similar trend and curves with Legendary weapons too, they have no procs.
    I understood it. Your focused on paper stats, which doesn't reflect overall damage a class can do. For this data you just throw out skills effect on gameplay? I mean, thats a pretty big part of the game your just not assessing. Im not sure how you can say that mages need a damage buff(wars too but thats a diff story) while not even taking into account the sheer AoE then can put out. If you are going by what your eyes see, then i can see why people think they need a buff, but its not correct to just completely disregard one of the cornerstones of this game, skills.

    You talk about constants, and how procs and skills cannot be addressed. That just does not make sense, its completely backwards to me. How can you consider making a weapon that is suppose to be balanced without taking into account skills lol?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PostNoob View Post
    I understood it. Your focused on paper stats, which doesn't reflect overall damage a class can do. For this data you just throw out skills effect on gameplay? I mean, thats a pretty big part of the game your just not assessing. Im not sure how you can say that mages need a damage buff(wars too but thats a diff story) while not even taking into account the sheer AoE then can put out. If you are going by what your eyes see, then i can see why people think they need a buff, but its not correct to just completely disregard one of the cornerstones of this game, skills.

    You talk about constants, and how procs and skills cannot be addressed. That just does not make sense, its completely backwards to me. How can you consider making a weapon that is suppose to be balanced without taking into account skills lol?
    Yes, I don't think you understood what I said, I said variables such as skills, are decided on constants, not the other way round. Your skill damage changes based on the damage stat, not the other way round. You dont even have to take Procs into account for now because you get the same curve for Legendary weapons too. Hope it makes sense now.

    Off topic:
    The AOE damage of one class is countered with the Single target damage of another depending on the class and role. Skills are different subject matter, they have different baselines which includes not only damage but cool downs too. I would be glad to have a open discussion on skills but on a different thread.
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    Although spiced with a detailed good-looking and grammatically error-free thread, which almost looks convincing, what the OP is asking for is unnecessary at the moment (my opinion, do not have to agree).

    Changes need to be made when a particular class is lagging behind and hence excluded from runs, owing to their class-flaws. It is not like mages are excluded from runs due to any imbalance, there is no imbalance. I see frequent calls for mages, as well as warriors and rogues. All the 3 classes are doing ok according to their roles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Earlingstad View Post
    Changes need to be made when a particular class is lagging behind and hence excluded from runs, owing to their class-flaws. It is not like mages are excluded from runs due to any imbalance, there is no imbalance. I see frequent calls for mages, as well as warriors and rogues. All the 3 classes are doing ok according to their roles.
    I disagree on two levels.
    1) Class balance is not determined on the basses of if a specific class is excluded from runs. (The issue with exclusion of mage and warrior from being called for end game raids was not resolved with class balance, it does not exist anymore because they removed gold from there)
    2) Class balance affects PVP and damage based runs (for example Raid LB) - players are not speaking about it anymore because there are no actions taken for all the outstanding discussions that are already available on the forum.

    But you are entitled to your opinion as I am
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    People get offended by how good he tabulated the data and they started to make another fuss to prove they are better.
    bye.

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    You cant speak on the mage class without taking the classes skills into consideration, the skills are what make a mage.

    All i see is a try to marginalize the power of their skills because you made a progression chart. This chart only addresses one classes strength, while subsequent posts are just completely avoiding, distracting away, and deflecting the other aspects that indirectly effect the outcome of said chart.

    Skills are what make characters who they are. Skills make the weapons. Everything evolved around skills. Yet it cannot be in the discussion. Weird how thats where mages power comes from. Well, Skills and Procs, both of which are being marginalized or completely lock out of the discussion.

    Once again, im all for balanced game play, but buffing mages damage curve is defidently not how you want to approach it. Changes to Rogues that would be considered a "nerf" are a much more suitable fix(which will end up getting the same types of posts as you'd expect).

    My fellow rogues may not agree but these changes are better imo:

    Global cap on Crit/Dodge

    Cap on Critical Damage%

    Small increase in Aimed shots cooldown.

    Small decrease on effectiveness of armor % for Rogues(diminish the returns)

    Slight reduction on enemy armor and all character classes damage.

    These changes would be hated by most all rogues but would be alot more healthy for the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PostNoob View Post
    You cant speak on the mage class without taking the classes skills into consideration, the skills are what make a mage.

    All i see is a try to marginalize the power of their skills because you made a progression chart. This chart only addresses one classes strength, while subsequent posts are just completely avoiding, distracting away, and deflecting the other aspects that indirectly effect the outcome of said chart.

    Skills are what make characters who they are. Skills make the weapons. Everything evolved around skills. Yet it cannot be in the discussion. Weird how thats where mages power comes from. Well, Skills and Procs, both of which are being marginalized or completely lock out of the discussion.

    Once again, im all for balanced game play, but buffing mages damage curve is defidently not how you want to approach it. Changes to Rogues that would be considered a "nerf" are a much more suitable fix(which will end up getting the same types of posts as you'd expect).

    My fellow rogues may not agree but these changes are better imo:

    Global cap on Crit/Dodge

    Cap on Critical Damage%

    Small increase in Aimed shots cooldown.

    Small decrease on effectiveness of armor % for Rogues(diminish the returns)

    Slight reduction on enemy armor and all character classes damage.

    These changes would be hated by most all rogues but would be alot more healthy for the game.
    You put this very nicely, I think there should be caps on %armor buffs.

    Buffing the classes is not the way to go, but nerfing and putting caps is better

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    I like how the game is rn tbh. Please dont change anything thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by PostNoob View Post
    My fellow rogues may not agree but these changes are better imo:

    Global cap on Crit/Dodge

    Cap on Critical Damage%

    Small increase in Aimed shots cooldown.

    Small decrease on effectiveness of armor % for Rogues(diminish the returns)

    Slight reduction on enemy armor and all character classes damage.
    then:
    reduce all slows, stuns, roots from mage's skills (mage should deal pure damage in ur opinion)
    neft all procs of mage's weapons, especially from lvl46-60 (yes yes dragon staff still bugged and balanced staff also)
    reduce number of targets by mage's staffs, and make it melee weapon
    remove armor upgrade from gale (or give mage +100%dodge instead of that 50% armor)
    remove 2sec invulnerability from mage's shield, also decrease shield to 20-30% dmg reduce instead of 55%, and decrease amount of damage absorbed

    so we will have 2 same dps classes (u wanted damage by mage, if u dont see other mage's advantages)
    and as u can see, warriors never complain about those things, because they know their work in party and doing it, if u have support/controlling class, why u complaining that dps class deals more dmg than u? lol

    what u still doing on ur mage if its so weak and why dont go rogue if it is so OP in ur opinion?
    Last edited by slaaayerrr; 12-18-2018 at 06:44 AM.

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