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Thread: Its time we Balance | Evolution of weapons

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    Im fine the way it is right now.. if you think one specific class is better, then play it..

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    I don't remember the game being this nice to all classes in a long time tbh, I haven't been very active in running all maps, but I don't see people changing their class as often as before. Overall, I think it's pretty good as it is.

    We can look at stats like armor and damage all day, but in the end it's the procs and skills what really make the difference. There are still warriors who use Glintstone Aegis and Mages that use Flame Staff, they don't care about their stats.

    As for classes being excluded from runs, I think it's more because of how the maps are designed. I wouldn't mind putting caps on Armor, Dodge, and Crit % tho.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slaaayerrr View Post
    then:
    reduce all slows, stuns, roots from mage's skills (mage should deal pure damage in ur opinion)
    neft all procs of mage's weapons, especially from lvl46-60 (yes yes dragon staff still bugged and balanced staff also)
    reduce number of targets by mage's staffs, and make it melee weapon
    remove armor upgrade from gale (or give mage +100%dodge instead of that 50% armor)
    remove 2sec invulnerability from mage's shield, also decrease shield to 20-30% dmg reduce instead of 55%, and decrease amount of damage absorbed

    so we will have 2 same dps classes (u wanted damage by mage, if u dont see other mage's advantages)
    Thank you! This is almost exactly the type of response i was hoping for. I was at a dead end with debate about the OP because it is very bias(ill say it again, you cannot judge damage by paper stats).

    I was hoping the last response i got would have shown more on how this is just a "buff mages" thread, and how one sided the info given is.

    Believe me, im no fool. I understand how strong CC/AoE is, and how underrated it becomes when you take it for granted. If you take the time to read this whole thread, you'll see what i did. Call it trickery or what you wish, it worked to an extent.

    Edit: i see your taking me serious on that quote, which it wasnt. If you actually read my posts, you'll see where my allegiance is. I am a Rogue player, not mage.
    Last edited by PostNoob; 12-18-2018 at 07:11 AM.

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    Sure why not send us back to that apocalypse cap where mages totally fooled STS into believing their broken class was balanced.

    Apart from putting a class specific cap on armor awakenings, the game is fine as it is.

    Of course a mage would have low damage when their health is 100,000.

    Maybe try your class specific stat rather than gold loot % and STR sometime.
    Last edited by Perceval; 12-18-2018 at 07:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PostNoob View Post
    Edit: i see your taking me serious on that quote, which it wasnt.
    my comment wasnt adressed exactly to u, it was for all whinning selfish mages who think that rogues so op but they still stay on their cheap mages with all mage's advantages and whinning why dps class dealing more damage than support (btw rogue using 3-4 damaging skills when i often see mages with 1-2 skills to deal damage)

    and if mages still see any problems about classes balance:
    pvp: u was lucky to kill rogues in some pvp brackets, i dont remember any mmorpg where support or aoe mage killing dps class
    also i didnt see many good geared mages lvl66-71 (only 3 tbh, for example - check how many lvl60 artifacts u see on mages and on rogues per day), so u think u can come pvp on ur cheap mage and kill everyone? thats funny
    even if buff mages for pvp and they will get more damage, what will be role of rogue then as dps class? rogue doesnt have mana, doesnt have stuns or skills to control enemies, it will be food
    https://www.spacetimestudios.com/sho...ar-up-everyone!!! here was nice example about pvp mage vs pve rogue with good stats, i've tried vs that mage also (we both had good gears), it was very hard for me, and ended as tie. (btw it was 1v1 in both sutiations, rogue as dps for 1 target vs mage which supposed to deal aoe damage) so tell me why mages still need buffs in pvp or rogues need nerf? maybe rogues need buffs? lol
    pve: same, u was lucky with some procs of staffs (and it was ok that party without dps class more effective than original party), but that was not normal (u could notice rogues in maus at lvl61/66 expansions)
    problem is not about damage which different classes dealing, problem is how mage and warrior needed in some endgame locations (it was discussed already many times, but all new maps still after damage, dont need to be skilled or have every class in ur party, just need to be rich to buy good gears and spam skills without any thinking and its sadly)
    so why mages whinning about rogues, if they can adress their cryings to sts and ask them to make maps where every class needed (or just go play rogue if u think that its so op)
    Last edited by slaaayerrr; 12-18-2018 at 07:52 AM.

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    Cute graphs, but frankly, they are telling us nothing useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by PostNoob View Post
    Im not against balance, but to throw a bunch of "on paper stats" out like this doesnt fully give you the grasp of mages damage output. To sit here and not show that side of things and just look at the basic stat of damg isnt fair.
    Quote Originally Posted by PostNoob View Post
    I understood it. Your focused on paper stats, which doesn't reflect overall damage a class can do. For this data you just throw out skills effect on gameplay? I mean, thats a pretty big part of the game your just not assessing. Im not sure how you can say that mages need a damage buff(wars too but thats a diff story) while not even taking into account the sheer AoE then can put out. If you are going by what your eyes see, then i can see why people think they need a buff, but its not correct to just completely disregard one of the cornerstones of this game, skills.
    ^ This, can be said a thousand times. In my viewpoint, I think you, the OP, is the one failing to see what several people are trying to tell you throughout this thread. As a mage myself who has been doing nothing but farming the new maps for approximately 60k xp a day this past week, I can unquestionable say that mages are in an exceptional state in the pve aspect of this game.

    The damage statistic you are referring to in your graphs is nothing but a number. Each skill's damage value scales with this given number. What I am trying to say is that this number is quite irrelevant alone when considering the damage output of a specific class. For example, a class can have 100 damage and have a skill that does 1000 damage because it scales by 10. On the other hand, another class can have exactly the same stat of 100 damage but have a skill that does only 200 damage because it scales by 2. There is no meaning to comparing the damage statistic of a class by itself.

    Another thing I would like to mention is the significance between aoe vs single target attacks which I do not think you are weighing accurately.

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoNuke View Post
    The AOE damage of one class is countered with the Single target damage of another depending on the class and role.
    I believe this is an absolutely invalid statement. If you were asked which is faster, a plane or a car, what you declared above is pretty much the same as saying traveling by air "counters" traveling by land, so they are equal. Does this make sense? Sorry, but it's going to be a hard negative for me. Let's take the new swamp map for example. If you sent in the three classes with the same gear and you were able to see how much damage each class did at the end of the run, I can guarantee you that mages will beat out the other two classes in this category. The reason why a mage's damage number is lower is because they can hit ten people with one skill thus multiplying their damage by the number of targets hit, while a rogue would generally only hit one target with one skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoNuke View Post
    Class balance affects PVP and damage based runs (for example Raid LB) - players are not speaking about it anymore because there are no actions taken for all the outstanding discussions that are already available on the forum.
    Last but not least, class balance in pvp and class balance in pve are in two completely different universes. There are contrasting circumstances in play such as having other opponents with different statistical values. Please do not coin them together as I could literally write a book about pvp class balance even if I have not pvp'd in a year, whereas I have nothing else to say on this matter about class balance in pve because I see no real immediate issues regarding this matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arcanefid View Post
    I wouldn't mind putting caps on Armor, Dodge, and Crit % tho.
    about dodge idk how it works, looking as useless stat, having 100% dodge rogues easily die without pots for example at 1st pull of mobs in maus (mobs dont have skills, only regular attacks).
    ofc u wouldnt mind put cap on crit because u playing warrior lol, and high crit will be useless for u even if u reach that.
    crit and damage is how rogue becomes dps class, if u want put cap on rogue's crit then why dont put cap on:
    - warrior hp (warriors never die now in pve, is it really interesting? in pvp clashes also rarely die)
    - warrior damage (warrior for taking agro, pulling and tanking, but not for dealing dmg, aoe dmg is for mages)
    - gold loot? 150% gold loot for example as cap? warrior and mages dont need to increase their stats for running pve good, warriors can tanking any map without good awakes/jewels, mages can be good without best stats also (some mages still with full str because of OP procs), i mean: warriors and mages dont loose their effectiveness if they have awakes as full gold loot, but rogues suck because need to choose between stats (and u are good rogue with high dmg, and making ur job well) or gold loot (low dmg, dont have good procs to kill, dont have skills for survive, dodge doesnt work correct, as result - useless rogue)
    Last edited by slaaayerrr; 12-18-2018 at 09:47 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slaaayerrr View Post
    about dodge idk how it works, looking as useless stat, having 100% dodge rogues easily die without pots for example at 1st pull of mobs in maus (mobs dont have skills, only regular attacks).
    ofc u wouldnt mind put cap on crit because u playing warrior lol, and high crit will be useless for u even if u reach that.
    crit and damage is how rogue becomes dps class, if u want put cap on rogue's crit then why dont put cap on:
    - warrior hp (warriors never die now in pve, is it really interesting? in pvp clashes also rarely die)
    - warrior damage (warrior for taking agro, pulling and tanking, but not for dealing dmg, aoe dmg is for mages)
    - gold loot? 150% gold loot for example as cap? warrior and mages dont need to increase their stats for running pve good, warriors can tanking any map without good awakes/jewels, mages can be good without best stats also (some mages still with full str because of OP procs), i mean: warriors and mages dont loose their effectiveness if they have awakes as full gold loot, but rogues suck because need to choose between stats (and u are good rogue with high dmg, and making ur job well) or gold loot (low dmg, dont have good procs to kill, dont have skills for survive, dodge doesnt work correct, as result - useless rogue)
    I would be fine with all that too. In fact, I have mentioned many times that I would get rid of awakenings completely, since they are ruining many things.

    As for dodge, it works only for auto attacks, skills have 100% hit chance I think. That's how it seems to work.

    PS: I never mentioned any specific number about them, it could be capped to 80% crit which is still good. ;3
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    Quote Originally Posted by arcanefid View Post
    As for dodge, it works only for auto attacks, skills have 100% hit chance I think. That's how it seems to work.
    have u read what i've told?
    example: i'm rogue with 100% dodge, first mobs in maus never have any skills, they have ONLY attacks, but if i go there without potions with my 100% dodge i cant survive long time, that dodge broken, i would say that it gives 50% real chance to dodge if i have 100% dodge in my stats (or maybe its already have cap? as 70-80% dodge? but hidden from players)
    some melee pets cant be dodged, when those pets attack me, sometimes it shows as "miss", but never dodge (almost all their attacks dealing damage, very rare chance to avoid their autoattacks)
    Last edited by slaaayerrr; 12-18-2018 at 10:02 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slaaayerrr View Post
    have u read what i've told?
    example: i'm rogue with 100% dodge, first mobs in maus never have any skills, they have ONLY attacks, but if i go there without potions with my 100% dodge i cant survive long time, that dodge broken, i would say that it gives 50% real chance to dodge if i have 100% dodge in my stats (or maybe its already have cap? as 70-80% dodge? but hidden from players)
    some melee pets cant be dodged, when those pets attack me, sometimes it shows as "miss", but never dodge (almost all their attacks dealing damage, very rare chance to avoid their autoattacks)
    Maybe the enemies that don't have any skill count their regular attack as a skill in order not to become completely useless. Don't worry, I read it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Instanthumor View Post
    ^ This, can be said a thousand times. In my viewpoint, I think you, the OP, is the one failing to see what several people are trying to tell you throughout this thread. As a mage myself who has been doing nothing but farming the new maps for approximately 60k xp a day this past week, I can unquestionable say that mages are in an exceptional state in the pve aspect of this game.
    As you see many players on this forum and ingame disagree. Please look at the after expansion threads (around 4 months worth) to gain knowledge on the current state of the classes. Farming xp, or being able to solo a map has nothing to do with class balance. But you are entitled to your opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Instanthumor View Post
    The damage statistic you are referring to in your graphs is nothing but a number. Each skill's damage value scales with this given number. What I am trying to say is that this number is quite irrelevant alone when considering the damage output of a specific class. For example, a class can have 100 damage and have a skill that does 1000 damage because it scales by 10. On the other hand, another class can have exactly the same stat of 100 damage but have a skill that does only 200 damage because it scales by 2. There is no meaning to comparing the damage statistic of a class by itself.
    Those numbers are damage and armor stats. Talking about damage: even in your example and in fact - skill damage is dependent on the damage stat, every time the damage from a weapon is reduced the skill damage reduces, every time the damage of a weapon is raised the skill damage raises.

    The intent of the OP is very simple: it asks why isn't the proportion maintained every-time the damage for a class is buffed? And it shows that the damage and armor difference between classes is increasing to grow exponentially.

    I am not sure why are people trying to read between the lines and if they are reading the OP at all.

    Off Topic:
    Quote Originally Posted by Instanthumor View Post
    Another thing I would like to mention is the significance between aoe vs single target attacks which I do not think you are weighing accurately.
    I believe this is an absolutely invalid statement. If you were asked which is faster, a plane or a car, what you declared above is pretty much the same as saying traveling by air "counters" traveling by land, so they are equal. Does this make sense? Sorry, but it's going to be a hard negative for me.
    No It doesn't make sense, that has no significance to skill. It would have made sense if the discussion was about movement speed, but we are not discussion speed/haste of a class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Instanthumor View Post
    Let's take the new swamp map for example. If you sent in the three classes with the same gear and you were able to see how much damage each class did at the end of the run, I can guarantee you that mages will beat out the other two classes in this category. The reason why a mage's damage number is lower is because they can hit ten people with one skill thus multiplying their damage by the number of targets hit, while a rogue would generally only hit one target with one skill.
    Let me get this right, you are determining the class balance on the bases of completion time of a map?
    That is a wrong category to begin with, tanks will fail in every map, mage will excel in maps with lots of mobs and rogue will excel in boss only encounters.

    Every class has AOE and Single target damage skills, the damage of every skill has a baseline and increase/reduction of skill damage is calculated on stat damage of the class, number of enemies affected by the skill and the skill cool down are factor that should be taken into consideration when talking about it.

    You should compare the skill damage for all skills for all classes on almost same damage stat, and you will understand my point. Trust me I have done my homework, if you like to have a discussion on skill damage differences for each skill and class then we should open a new thread for open discussion - I actually recommend this to @Thread. It will make my life easy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Instanthumor View Post
    Last but not least, class balance in pvp and class balance in pve are in two completely different universes.
    True, and OP does not suggest any where that the balance should be same/different for PvE and/or PvP. Its upto devs to decide how the changes (if any) to be implemented and if it should be implemented only for pvp/pve or different changes for PvP and PvE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Instanthumor View Post
    There are contrasting circumstances in play such as having other opponents with different statistical values. Please do not coin them together as I could literally write a book about pvp class balance even if I have not pvp'd in a year, whereas I have nothing else to say on this matter about class balance in pve because I see no real immediate issues regarding this matter.
    Different statistical values over basic stats are variables (such as pets and awakes) and they are not included on this discussion.
    You should write a thread on PvP class balance, if not a book. It would be nice to see facts on those sides. oh! and if you do please do not include the variables
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoNuke View Post
    The intent of the OP is very simple: it asks why isn't the proportion maintained every-time the damage for a class is buffed? And it shows that the damage and armor difference between classes is increasing to grow exponentially.

    I am not sure why are people trying to read between the lines and if they are reading the OP at all.
    The way I see it, it is wrong because you are comparing items that have procs. An item with a better proc is OK to have worse stats than one with a bad proc. That IS balance. It's the name of the thread. Edit: You can't really say Flame Hammer is better than Flame Staff, even if the hammer has 5X more damage.

    Basically, to have more accurate results for those graphs and to make a better comparison between weapons, items, and classes in general, you have to include data for each tier of the items, or at least from Legendary to Arcane, but you must also consider the procs that each weapon has, because if you just ignore the most important part of the thing you're investigating, then everything you come up with is pointless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perceval View Post
    Sure why not send us back to that apocalypse cap where mages totally fooled STS into believing their broken class was balanced.
    I can say the same, that Rogues are fooling STS now saying everything is fine . Where in fact it is not.
    But then those are personal opinions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Perceval View Post
    Apart from putting a class specific cap on armor awakenings, the game is fine as it is.

    Of course a mage would have low damage when their health is 100,000.

    Maybe try your class specific stat rather than gold loot % and STR sometime.
    Awakes, pets etc are variables that are not accounted for class balance. And if you read the OP (I doubt), you would know that the discussion is limited to damage/armor gap between weapons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoNuke View Post
    Awakes, pets etc are variables that are not accounted for class balance.
    why not accounted for class balance?

    imagine if remove all pets with shields from pvp, or remove all awakes, balance will be changed much

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    Quote Originally Posted by arcanefid View Post
    The way I see it, it is wrong because you are comparing items that have procs. An item with a better proc is OK to have worse stats than one with a bad proc. That IS balance. It's the name of the thread. Edit: You can't really say Flame Hammer is better than Flame Staff, even if the hammer has 5X more damage.

    Basically, to have more accurate results for those graphs and to make a better comparison between weapons, items, and classes in general, you have to include data for each tier of the items, or at least from Legendary to Arcane, but you must also consider the procs that each weapon has, because if you just ignore the most important part of the thing you're investigating, then everything you come up with is pointless.

    You can get the same curve and trends for legendary weapons as well, they have no procs. I would really appreciate if players have that concern then they should have a look at the stats of legendary weapons, both dps and armor. I think Warfare type Legendary will give info on both DPS and Armor and they are available level 41+ on all level caps.
    Trust me I wanted to do it for Legendary, Mythics and Arcanes and I did spend quite a long time looking for all the weapons for all caps but I failed. When I compared the available material for each rarity I realized that Mystics are like 5% above Legendary and Arcanes are around 10% above Mythics, so graphs almost showed same curves. So I decided to do it on Mythics because they were in middle and I had screenshots of most Mythics.

    This is from the time I was looking into Legendary, unfortunately I only have it for armor at present, Legendary (Warfare type)

    Level Mage Rogue Warrior

    Level 41 42 42 224
    Level 51 51 174 246
    Level 61 61 354 434
    Level 71 70 411 504

    Attachment 173571

    I will try to get one for damage as well, till I can, I would appreciate if players check it themselves. Ty.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoNuke View Post
    You can get the same curve and trends for legendary weapons as well, they have no procs. I would really appreciate if players have that concern then they should have a look at the stats of legendary weapons, both dps and armor. I think Warfare type Legendary will give info on both DPS and Armor and they are available level 41+ on all level caps.
    Trust me I wanted to do it for Legendary, Mythics and Arcanes and I did spend quite a long time looking for all the weapons for all caps but I failed. When I compared the available material for each rarity I realized that Mystics are like 5% above Legendary and Arcanes are around 10% above Mythics, so graphs almost showed same curves. So I decided to do it on Mythics because they were in middle and I had screenshots of most Mythics.

    This is from the time I was looking into Legendary, unfortunately I only have it for armor at present, Legendary (Warfare type)

    Level Mage Rogue Warrior

    Level 41 42 42 224
    Level 51 51 174 246
    Level 61 61 354 434
    Level 71 70 411 504

    Attachment 173571

    I will try to get one for damage as well, till I can, I would appreciate if players check it themselves. Ty.
    That is better, but still, I know many Legendary weapons which have procs. I can start counting the warrior ones: Dark Watch Sword, Magmatic Claymore, Galen's Maul, Dusk Sword, Planar Club, etc. I think it's only the more recent legendary weapons which have no procs, but then again, now the new Mythics are just a kind of replacement for what would be Legendary in the older times.

    Anyway, I think it would be impossible to really find out in detail what, how, when, why, etc. It takes a lot of time and a lot of money. And the amount of things you have to test to come up with accurate results is just too big. We know though that classes weren't balanced in previous caps, but now they are just fine, or at least much better than what it used to be. As a matter of fact, around the time when the OP shows that Mages were at their absolute worst state, I think it was when everyone was becoming a mage because of Flame Staff? Am I wrong?
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    Quote Originally Posted by arcanefid View Post
    That is better, but still, I know many Legendary weapons which have procs. I can start counting the warrior ones: Dark Watch Sword, Magmatic Claymore, Galen's Maul, Dusk Sword, Planar Club, etc. I think it's only the more recent legendary weapons which have no procs, but then again, now the new Mythics are just a kind of replacement for what would be Legendary in the older times.
    Feel free to pick any legendary weapon with or without procs., you will get same results. None of the weapons have procs in the graph I shown in last post. Like level 61 dusk had procs but light didn't, so I used light.
    Quote Originally Posted by arcanefid View Post
    Anyway, I think it would be impossible to really find out in detail what, how, when, why, etc. It takes a lot of time and a lot of money. And the amount of things you have to test to come up with accurate results is just too big. We know though that classes weren't balanced in previous caps, but now they are just fine, or at least much better than what it used to be. As a matter of fact, around the time when the OP shows that Mages were at their absolute worst state, I think it was when everyone was becoming a mage because of Flame Staff? Am I wrong?
    Flame staff came before the Level 57 Cap but was used till level 66. I cannot blame players to keep using it because then we have warriors with glint that came before that. Sure those weapon should have been nerfed but with all sincerity I do not think these things were taken into consideration for the current baselines we have, because they are same with or without procs.

    Anyway, we are not here to play blame games or discuss what happened in past, the idea is to have a discussion to build a more balanced future. Weapons are only the start, it goes to main gear, skills and etc.. but one thing at a time, people are just running all over the place off topic
    Last edited by PsychoNuke; 12-18-2018 at 11:18 AM. Reason: I missed to address underline
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoNuke View Post
    Feel free to pick any legendary weapon with or without procs., you will get same results. None of the weapons have procs in the graph I shown in last post. Like level 61 dusk had procs but light didn't, so I used light.


    True, and we are not here to play blame games or discuss what happened in past, the idea is to have a discussion to build a more balanced future. And weapons are only the start, it goes to main gear, skills and etc.. but one thing at a time, people are just running all over the place off topic
    Well that explains a lot actually. It makes sense that the lower tier gears for Mages to have worse stats than those of Rogues and Warriors, simply because of the skills that the classes have.

    If we just use gear without procs, Mages would be the best class hands down because of their skills. They have the ability to use Shield, recover Health and Mana, attack multiple enemies at once, attack a single enemy for heavy damage, slow enemies, and other stuff I am probably missing. So this explains that the gear without procs are fine to have worse stats to maintain class balance. I'm not sure if you play the Warrior class, but if you do, playing it feels extremely empty and hard until you get weapons with procs, even if the item stats are above average.

    Good procs for Mages like Flame Staff, Immo Staff, or DS, made them the best class for PvE without any contest. This was easily noticeable during the Mausoleum and Underhul times, pretty much around the times when Mages had the worst stats. So in the end we can see that when Mages had the good procs, their garbage stats didn't matter at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoNuke View Post
    and we are not here to play blame games or discuss what happened in past, the idea is to have a discussion to build a more balanced future
    lol u are here because of ur selfishness about ur class, dont need to hide it behind ur "clever" graphics and ur seriously talking about balance.

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoNuke View Post
    Awakes, pets etc are variables that are not accounted for class balance.
    if u are not count pets, awakes and other things - i'll make very simple example about how u want to prove that mage need buff and i'll try to be serious like u:

    Lets exclude everything and look only at range of attacks (same as u excluded everything and made graphics about dmg armor) and this DISBALANCE:
    Attachment 173572
    mages have so OP range, lets nerf all mages, they really op already for 3-4 years of AL, also give warriors weapon with ranged attack
    Last edited by slaaayerrr; 12-18-2018 at 11:41 AM.

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    Dude, you do not want to speak of Procs..dont want to hear it about skill AoE damage, awakens, pets.

    You only want to talk about how there is a larger damage gap moving forward on mage weapons. Now if you actually did care about balance, dont you think it would be smart to take every single aspect that could have influence on why there is this gap, and consider it? Your not even considering the very things that make weapons. "Its a variable, it doesnt apply"...yes it does! If has a possibility to influence the overall preformance of a weapon, you have to account for that!

    You cant simply disregard key aspects of the game soley because it suits your cause to have mages buffed.thats what your doing, its plain as day.

    I just dont see how you create these graphs, take as much time as you did(looks like you put some work into it at least) and not see why it is the way it is. It probably took me literally a minute to understand this, its basic stuff man.

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