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Thread: An Attempt at Perfect Balance for 110 PvP

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    Default An Attempt at Perfect Balance for 110 PvP

    Pocket Legends’ PvP has seen its ups and downs over the years. 110 is perhaps one of the worst endgame PvP Levels ever made. Perhaps that is too blunt? Perhaps you are asking why that is the case? Well, it’s simple: stats are so ridiculously blown out of proportion that it will be impossible to find balance without a complete overhaul of stats.

    I’m only creating this thread because the precedent has now been made that PvP stats can be changed a lot without affecting PvE stats.

    Well, now that is out of the way, you may be asking what endgame level I thought was balanced enough to warrant creating this thread. The answer is Balefort Sewers. Why? Well, the simplest way to put it is: every single combination of gear was completely viable on any class. Pocket Legends has always been a game that has encouraged unorthodox stats and gear-specs (Pallies, Int Bears, etc) and having a level cap where every combination was viable really created a vibrant, fun, and balanced PvP experience for everyone.

    Now, it’s easy for me to say that PvP is unbalanced, but it’s another thing for me to show you just how broken endgame PvP is at the moment. To preface: I used only one skill as an example as I do not want to sit here for hours calculating perfect percentages for the entirety of the PL skill tree. I used break armor as an example because I knew the numbers off the top of my head (plus it divides easily into more numbers than percentages do).

    A bird’s Level 6 Break Armor at the 56 cap created on average a 21.28% armor reduction on the opponent without buffs. Now? Well, a bird’s L10 Break Armor in this cap creates on average a 1.63% armor reduction. (calculations found below)

    https://i.imgur.com/n2B8G7k.jpg

    To the people that have no idea what I just said, I’ll try to word it a bit better: to have break armor do the equivalent average armor reduction%, the debuff would have to do -702 armor instead of its current -54.

    However, I do not recommend adopting this approach for every debuff in the game; as Honour PvP would be literally ruined.

    What I would like to propose for endgame PvP balance is the following:

    Model the loot-table to have the same stats as their counterparts in the 56 cap did whilst in PvP arenas, with some stat modifications in place to accommodate for L10 skills and 500 stat points.

    Mythic sets should have the equivalent stats to Custom/Enchanted/Fortified sets

    Elite sets should have the equivalent stats to Raid Roach/Mega Mage/Fury Fighter sets

    Legendary sets should have equivalent stats to Sewer King/Sewer Queen/Royal Sewer sets, Epics should have equivalent stats to Henchman/Bodyguard/Mastermind sets

    And so forth.

    The best part about that? Well, it means mythics would no longer be a necessity to PvP, which opens up balanced PvP to the overwhelming majority of the playerbase; the ones that are not the ultra, filthy rich.

    What do I mean by stat modifications? Well, if we take our break armor example and apply it here again, a -54 armor debuff changes the average debuff% to be 44.3%. This means to replicate the feel of sewers PvP with L10 skills, there needs to be a 2.11x stat boost for the total armour, HP, and damage of these new sets. (calculations below).

    https://i.imgur.com/jtLUhn4.jpg

    Here is an example of what the 110 Mythic dex set would look like with the new stats:



    Note how the armor, HP, and damage have been changed to suit the modifier, to accommodate for L10 skills.

    The final thing I want to mention is enchantments. Enchantments exist purely to generate revenue and to make our Legends more powerful. If we seek perfect PvP balance then there is no need for enchantments in PvP at all.

    Instead? Well, taking Dolloway’s suggestion out of one of my other posts, enchantments should be made PvE only with these stat boosts instead:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dolloway
    Other potential enchantments that could be added to cater to a PVE-only audience might be reroll%, boss spawn%, spawn the boss multiple times type of enchantment, minion/enemy reduction% enchantment, healing over time% enchantment (say 5% heal over time), etc.
    I do believe this is the best (and only) approach to take to balancing endgame PvP perfectly.

    Honour PvP should not be touched at all by these modifications, please!

    If you want me to go ahead and work out modifiers that take into account the entirety of the skill tree and not just one skill please tell me.

    Thanks to Kingfu, Physiologic, Angeldawn, Ellyidol, and Dolloway for letting me use their posts as a reference for some numbers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by burntoutdex View Post
    Pocket Legendsí PvP has seen its ups and downs over the years. 110 is perhaps one of the worst endgame PvP Levels ever made. Perhaps that is too blunt? Perhaps you are asking why that is the case? Well, itís simple: stats are so ridiculously blown out of proportion that it will be impossible to find balance without a complete overhaul of stats.

    Iím only creating this thread because the precedent has now been made that PvP stats can be changed a lot without affecting PvE stats.

    Well, now that is out of the way, you may be asking what endgame level I thought was balanced enough to warrant creating this thread. The answer is Balefort Sewers. Why? Well, the simplest way to put it is: every single combination of gear was completely viable on any class. Pocket Legends has always been a game that has encouraged unorthodox stats and gear-specs (Pallies, Int Bears, etc) and having a level cap where every combination was viable really created a vibrant, fun, and balanced PvP experience for everyone.

    Now, itís easy for me to say that PvP is unbalanced, but itís another thing for me to show you just how broken endgame PvP is at the moment. To preface: I used only one skill as an example as I do not want to sit here for hours calculating perfect percentages for the entirety of the PL skill tree. I used break armor as an example because I knew the numbers off the top of my head (plus it divides easily into more numbers than percentages do).

    A birdís Level 6 Break Armor at the 56 cap created on average a 21.28% armor reduction on the opponent without buffs. Now? Well, a birdís L10 Break Armor in this cap creates on average a 1.63% armor reduction. (calculations found below)

    https://i.imgur.com/n2B8G7k.jpg

    To the people that have no idea what I just said, Iíll try to word it a bit better: to have break armor do the equivalent average armor reduction%, the debuff would have to do -702 armor instead of its current -54.

    However, I do not recommend adopting this approach for every debuff in the game; as Honour PvP would be literally ruined.

    What I would like to propose for endgame PvP balance is the following:

    Model the loot-table to have the same stats as their counterparts in the 56 cap did whilst in PvP arenas, with some stat modifications in place to accommodate for L10 skills and 500 stat points.

    Mythic sets should have the equivalent stats to Custom/Enchanted/Fortified sets

    Elite sets should have the equivalent stats to Raid Roach/Mega Mage/Fury Fighter sets

    Legendary sets should have equivalent stats to Sewer King/Sewer Queen/Royal Sewer sets, Epics should have equivalent stats to Henchman/Bodyguard/Mastermind sets

    And so forth.

    The best part about that? Well, it means mythics would no longer be a necessity to PvP, which opens up balanced PvP to the overwhelming majority of the playerbase; the ones that are not the ultra, filthy rich.

    What do I mean by stat modifications? Well, if we take our break armor example and apply it here again, a -54 armor debuff changes the average debuff% to be 44.3%. This means to replicate the feel of sewers PvP with L10 skills, there needs to be a 2.11x stat boost for the total armour, HP, and damage of these new sets. (calculations below).

    https://i.imgur.com/jtLUhn4.jpg

    Here is an example of what the 110 Mythic dex set would look like with the new stats:



    Note how the armor, HP, and damage have been changed to suit the modifier, to accommodate for L10 skills.

    The final thing I want to mention is enchantments. Enchantments exist purely to generate revenue and to make our Legends more powerful. If we seek perfect PvP balance then there is no need for enchantments in PvP at all.

    Instead? Well, taking Dollowayís suggestion out of one of my other posts, enchantments should be made PvE only with these stat boosts instead:



    I do believe this is the best (and only) approach to take to balancing endgame PvP perfectly.

    Honour PvP should not be touched at all by these modifications, please!

    If you want me to go ahead and work out modifiers that take into account the entirety of the skill tree and not just one skill please tell me.

    Thanks to Kingfu, Physiologic, Angeldawn, Ellyidol, and Dolloway for letting me use their posts as a reference for some numbers.
    This idea is amazing hopefully cinco will listen this would revive low lvl pvp if enchants were removed from pvp too

    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
    Last edited by ManOnTheMoon; 08-30-2019 at 01:59 AM.

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    Finally a good idea to solve pvp imbalance

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    Quote Originally Posted by burntoutdex View Post
    Pocket Legendsí PvP has seen its ups and downs over the years. 110 is perhaps one of the worst endgame PvP Levels ever made. Perhaps that is too blunt? Perhaps you are asking why that is the case? Well, itís simple: stats are so ridiculously blown out of proportion that it will be impossible to find balance without a complete overhaul of stats.

    Iím only creating this thread because the precedent has now been made that PvP stats can be changed a lot without affecting PvE stats.

    Well, now that is out of the way, you may be asking what endgame level I thought was balanced enough to warrant creating this thread. The answer is Balefort Sewers. Why? Well, the simplest way to put it is: every single combination of gear was completely viable on any class. Pocket Legends has always been a game that has encouraged unorthodox stats and gear-specs (Pallies, Int Bears, etc) and having a level cap where every combination was viable really created a vibrant, fun, and balanced PvP experience for everyone.

    Now, itís easy for me to say that PvP is unbalanced, but itís another thing for me to show you just how broken endgame PvP is at the moment. To preface: I used only one skill as an example as I do not want to sit here for hours calculating perfect percentages for the entirety of the PL skill tree. I used break armor as an example because I knew the numbers off the top of my head (plus it divides easily into more numbers than percentages do).

    A birdís Level 6 Break Armor at the 56 cap created on average a 21.28% armor reduction on the opponent without buffs. Now? Well, a birdís L10 Break Armor in this cap creates on average a 1.63% armor reduction. (calculations found below)

    https://i.imgur.com/n2B8G7k.jpg

    To the people that have no idea what I just said, Iíll try to word it a bit better: to have break armor do the equivalent average armor reduction%, the debuff would have to do -702 armor instead of its current -54.

    However, I do not recommend adopting this approach for every debuff in the game; as Honour PvP would be literally ruined.

    What I would like to propose for endgame PvP balance is the following:

    Model the loot-table to have the same stats as their counterparts in the 56 cap did whilst in PvP arenas, with some stat modifications in place to accommodate for L10 skills and 500 stat points.

    Mythic sets should have the equivalent stats to Custom/Enchanted/Fortified sets

    Elite sets should have the equivalent stats to Raid Roach/Mega Mage/Fury Fighter sets

    Legendary sets should have equivalent stats to Sewer King/Sewer Queen/Royal Sewer sets, Epics should have equivalent stats to Henchman/Bodyguard/Mastermind sets

    And so forth.

    The best part about that? Well, it means mythics would no longer be a necessity to PvP, which opens up balanced PvP to the overwhelming majority of the playerbase; the ones that are not the ultra, filthy rich.

    What do I mean by stat modifications? Well, if we take our break armor example and apply it here again, a -54 armor debuff changes the average debuff% to be 44.3%. This means to replicate the feel of sewers PvP with L10 skills, there needs to be a 2.11x stat boost for the total armour, HP, and damage of these new sets. (calculations below).

    https://i.imgur.com/jtLUhn4.jpg

    Here is an example of what the 110 Mythic dex set would look like with the new stats:



    Note how the armor, HP, and damage have been changed to suit the modifier, to accommodate for L10 skills.

    The final thing I want to mention is enchantments. Enchantments exist purely to generate revenue and to make our Legends more powerful. If we seek perfect PvP balance then there is no need for enchantments in PvP at all.

    Instead? Well, taking Dollowayís suggestion out of one of my other posts, enchantments should be made PvE only with these stat boosts instead:



    I do believe this is the best (and only) approach to take to balancing endgame PvP perfectly.

    Honour PvP should not be touched at all by these modifications, please!

    If you want me to go ahead and work out modifiers that take into account the entirety of the skill tree and not just one skill please tell me.

    Thanks to Kingfu, Physiologic, Angeldawn, Ellyidol, and Dolloway for letting me use their posts as a reference for some numbers.
    While I do agree that sewers was by far the most fun and balanced PvP cap, 110 PvP is already pretty balanced (with the exception of rhino). Iíll discuss the issues below:

    -So far it seems like all of the PvP adjustments made had no effect on rhino, yes they still two shot with charge + redemption.

    -Rhino and fox have long been glitching when using charge or any dash moves, because sometimes it makes them seem to be standing still in one spot, while your health goes down it looks like a ghost is killing you.

    -Rhino charge range. Currently, Rhinoís charge range is 12 meters with a 3 second cooldown. Couple this with a tanky melee set that outdamages and can tank for a good amount of time, and you can kill any target of your choosing every 3 seconds. A way of balancing this without dramatically affecting stats is to adjust the class itself. In my opinion, I think the charge range should be reduced to 10 meters, or charge cooldown be significantly increased.

    -Guardian negates negative effects for 8 seconds. This means that they automatically are immune to Hell scream, Root, avian scream and freeze. While i do believe this is a crucial skill to rhino, with the current damage counters on myth and such high hit and crit percentages, it makes them a nukey tank with high crowd control along with being immune to crowd control. When has any mmo had that?

    -Rhino heal gives them a passive +100 hp regen. With a mythical set bonus which gives +220 hp regen itself, coupled with a low cooldown heal, you have something that can instantaneously heal off damage while mowing down teams 1v3.

    In conclusion, the rhino class itself needs to be adjusted, this is not an ďop setĒ issue, because with all 4 other classes, the Mythical sets are very balanced and reminds me of 76 cap pvp. If reducing rhino charge range from 12 to 10m seems to dramatic, I do believe that the rhino should have more tanking ability and crowd control as they were originally intended to do.

    TL;DR: Rhino 2 shots with any mythical set at the moment even with all current pvp adjustments, with charge + redemption skill. Alternative solution would be to reduce their charge range from 12 to 10m, or to to increase charges cooldown to from 3 seconds to 7.5 seconds like beckon is. Rhino is a support class, not a nuke.
    Supergotenks
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperGotenks View Post
    While I do agree that sewers was by far the most fun and balanced PvP cap, 110 PvP is already pretty balanced (with the exception of rhino). I’ll discuss the issues below:

    -So far it seems like all of the PvP adjustments made had no effect on rhino, yes they still two shot with charge + redemption.

    -Rhino and fox have long been glitching when using charge or any dash moves, because sometimes it makes them seem to be standing still in one spot, while your health goes down it looks like a ghost is killing you.

    -Rhino charge range. Currently, Rhino’s charge range is 12 meters with a 3 second cooldown. Couple this with a tanky melee set that outdamages and can tank for a good amount of time, and you can kill any target of your choosing every 3 seconds. A way of balancing this without dramatically affecting stats is to adjust the class itself. In my opinion, I think the charge range should be reduced to 10 meters, or charge cooldown be significantly increased.

    -Guardian negates negative effects for 8 seconds. This means that they automatically are immune to Hell scream, Root, avian scream and freeze. While i do believe this is a crucial skill to rhino, with the current damage counters on myth and such high hit and crit percentages, it makes them a nukey tank with high crowd control along with being immune to crowd control. When has any mmo had that?

    -Rhino heal gives them a passive +100 hp regen. With a mythical set bonus which gives +220 hp regen itself, coupled with a low cooldown heal, you have something that can instantaneously heal off damage while mowing down teams 1v3.

    In conclusion, the rhino class itself needs to be adjusted, this is not an “op set” issue, because with all 4 other classes, the Mythical sets are very balanced and reminds me of 76 cap pvp. If reducing rhino charge range from 12 to 10m seems to dramatic, I do believe that the rhino should have more tanking ability and crowd control as they were originally intended to do.

    TL;DR: Rhino 2 shots with any mythical set at the moment even with all current pvp adjustments, with charge + redemption skill. Alternative solution would be to reduce their charge range from 12 to 10m, or to to increase charges cooldown to from 3 seconds to 7.5 seconds like beckon is. Rhino is a support class, not a nuke.
    I don't not authorize any sort of rhino nerf wether directed at the classes skills or stats. Rhino as a class is meant to be in a high stat environment, which is why it's skills are more powerful in 110 than they are in 40.

    Let's start with the first statement.

    1. Rhino and foxes teleportation glitch only happens when you are revived or not rendered in when the class is in mid dash. Wether it's going in your inventory or being revived this is the only way it's activated. It could be done manually by wall jumping or tree jumping but the class itself shouldn't be blamed for it.

    2. Charge as a skill is crucial and to have it nerfed on endgames behalf Is extremely selfish. Rhino has no sort of freeze or pull, just a stun that can only be used at extremely close range, which can be healed or removed easily. So to make up for this rhinos ate given a 12 meter charge. As it stands rhino is the only class that can't fight efficiently at 12 meters so removing the only aspect that keeps them relevant would be similar to having a shotgun in a gun fight with a sniper many hundred yards away from each other.

    Fire would not only out range charge but cancel it mid way. Same with repulse, hs, darts, stomp and every other range controlling skill. Bad idea.

    3. Guardian is meant to be The Perfect Skill, TPS. To make up for a absurdly stupid long cooldown in rhinos Restore, heal, it has guardian which takes heal 1 step further. Guardian is OP but only when armor value is equalivent to dam infinity. Guardian's biggest weakness is a level where armor reduction is lower than Damage. At 11k Damage players are only hitting each other got 1.6-2.8k tops. Which makes no sense on paper. Had it been 4-5k Guardian wouldn't be able to survive the onslaught which will then force the rhino to use its most important skill and the last statement of yours.

    3. RESTORE. This skill not only just the most important skill but one of the weakest of its skill set. Imagine having a heal you have to wait 5 seconds just to use. True that +60 hp regen helps but if I'm stunned does that even matter? Let's think about why rhino as a class was looked apon as the worst of the 5 classes. A simple HS or blind is all it takes to go from a full rhino to a dead rhino.

    A fight naturally only lasts 12 seconds in a regular PvP setting. That's only 2 heals I can get off. When you overlook that the skill itself doesn't heal anywhere near what mages do we sit with this misconception that it's broken. I stated the minute sets was given self heal that it would be a great exploit towards rhinos and I advised it to be removed. Nobody listened. Now rhinos have 4 big heals. The biggest of the 4 is obviously the set heal. Giving a measly 1k base health them ontop of that a 100 hp per second Is ludicrous, rhinos already do this with restore but the health given per heal is no where near a the numbers the set gives.

    Here is restrospec of rhinos normal heal. At max we are getting a 300 heal + a 62-90 H/s. Add this with set and we are left with +300 base heal + the 62-90H/s plus the 1k bonus heal+ the set heal 100hp per second. This shouldn't be blamed on rhinos nor should they be nerfed because of it.

    5. I say this alot but I don't think endgamers listen. Everytime you try and nerf a class you effect ALL OF US. This nerf suggestion would murder rhinos 11/10

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperGotenks View Post
    While I do agree that sewers was by far the most fun and balanced PvP cap, 110 PvP is already pretty balanced (with the exception of rhino). I’ll discuss the issues below:

    -So far it seems like all of the PvP adjustments made had no effect on rhino, yes they still two shot with charge + redemption.

    -Rhino and fox have long been glitching when using charge or any dash moves, because sometimes it makes them seem to be standing still in one spot, while your health goes down it looks like a ghost is killing you.

    -Rhino charge range. Currently, Rhino’s charge range is 12 meters with a 3 second cooldown. Couple this with a tanky melee set that outdamages and can tank for a good amount of time, and you can kill any target of your choosing every 3 seconds. A way of balancing this without dramatically affecting stats is to adjust the class itself. In my opinion, I think the charge range should be reduced to 10 meters, or charge cooldown be significantly increased.

    -Guardian negates negative effects for 8 seconds. This means that they automatically are immune to Hell scream, Root, avian scream and freeze. While i do believe this is a crucial skill to rhino, with the current damage counters on myth and such high hit and crit percentages, it makes them a nukey tank with high crowd control along with being immune to crowd control. When has any mmo had that?

    -Rhino heal gives them a passive +100 hp regen. With a mythical set bonus which gives +220 hp regen itself, coupled with a low cooldown heal, you have something that can instantaneously heal off damage while mowing down teams 1v3.

    In conclusion, the rhino class itself needs to be adjusted, this is not an “op set” issue, because with all 4 other classes, the Mythical sets are very balanced and reminds me of 76 cap pvp. If reducing rhino charge range from 12 to 10m seems to dramatic, I do believe that the rhino should have more tanking ability and crowd control as they were originally intended to do.

    TL;DR: Rhino 2 shots with any mythical set at the moment even with all current pvp adjustments, with charge + redemption skill. Alternative solution would be to reduce their charge range from 12 to 10m, or to to increase charges cooldown to from 3 seconds to 7.5 seconds like beckon is. Rhino is a support class, not a nuke.
    The nerf suggestion to change Charge from 12m to 10m is a terrible idea as MageFFA stated. Not only would you cripple rhinos at level 110 vs any ranged class, you would destroy them at any twink level as well. Rhinos' only skill to get in range is Charge, much like Bear has Beckon and Hellscream.

    If debuffs actually worked like they are supposed to, rhinos would be able to be countered much easier.

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    Gear is what makes rhino good is something I've learnt over the years. Class it self is so weak with only 3 skills that deals dmg and some others that r useless.

    Btw did u check rhino in honor arena with everyone having 'balanced gear'?

    Weapon is 1.8 slow, not tanky at all and do 0 dmg, only thing u can do in honor is walking and doing nothing, all u can do is die and rev team mates.

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    Agree with ecnhantments not working in pvp. Pvp would be more balanced without them. But would also be a bit lame for people who spend millions for enchanting their gear for pvp tho.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AyyVeeArr View Post
    Agree with ecnhantments not working in pvp. Pvp would be more balanced without them. But would also be a bit lame for people who spend millions for enchanting their gear for pvp tho.
    We didnít used to rely on enchanted gear to be good at pvp now people do itís pretty annoying for the most part but that aside for the people that poured millions of gold into enchants itís not like they didnít get anything out of it. Pvp should not have the enchant system and if we were to stop it from working then people shouldnít need to complain either. While it was in effect the people who payed to be op in pvp got what they wanted and if it were do disappear now they still got use out of it. The best thing would be twink pvp coming back alive if enchants didnít work in pvp anymore. Although there is still the issue of 50+ stat gun which also should be outlawed for pvp.

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    Ppl stop twinking L50-76 because of enchants, making those lvl dead as we did wont change their mind.
    Twinking was 'active' pre enchanted system.
    Ppl moving to 10-22 because no OP elites and no enchants, i hope they dont touch it for now. What they did to 25-45 is unforgivable. L35 was so fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duckypowerz View Post
    We didnít used to rely on enchanted gear to be good at pvp now people do itís pretty annoying for the most part but that aside for the people that poured millions of gold into enchants itís not like they didnít get anything out of it. Pvp should not have the enchant system and if we were to stop it from working then people shouldnít need to complain either. While it was in effect the people who payed to be op in pvp got what they wanted and if it were do disappear now they still got use out of it. The best thing would be twink pvp coming back alive if enchants didnít work in pvp anymore. Although there is still the issue of 50+ stat gun which also should be outlawed for pvp.
    I agree with you. But the people who did spend alot on enchantments for sure did it for pvp and not pve. If you want to remove enchants from pvp without pissing these people off you need a solution that those people would agree with. No one wants pve enchants on their twink items.

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