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  Click here to go to the first Dev post in this thread.   Thread: Burntoutdex's Solutions

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    Tournament & Ladder Leader XghostzX's Avatar
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    Default Burntoutdex's Solutions

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    In lieu of the conversation with Cinco above, I went ahead and reposted Burntout's suggestions here so that we can have a more fruitful discussion.

    Burnt's Suggestions:

    1. Listen to the community you created.

    It is home to some of the smartest people I have ever met. They know what they are talking about. More so than you might think as a developer. If we say there is a problem, there likely is one. I know consideration is given to a lot of what is posted here, but when good ideas are blatantly ignored in favour of bad ideas, it is insulting, to say the least.

    2. Implement the changes that we suggest.

    This one's simple: fix the things that we prove need fixing.

    3. Remove Damage Modifiers in PvP.

    Damage Modifiers can not, and will never be able to fix blatant imbalances that have literally spread to every single level of PvP. Having this many damage modifiers across level ranges, to the point where they overlap and create inconsistencies in damage and armor is such an awful "fix" to the rampant imbalance created by gear and some core mechanics of the game. They should be removed in their entirety, forever.

    4. Fix the blatant imbalance between sets both at Endgame and Twinking levels.

    I know this cap was meant to have items that are 'worth grinding for,' but it is simply not healthy for the game to achieve this by making the Mythics so ridiculously overpowered that skill is literally not even a factor in fights anymore.

    In lower levels, the best gear is just unfair, I don't know how else to put it. I can literally 1v3 fully enchanted Level 30 Mages in elites on a Level 27 bird. That should not be possible. The toxicity that this has created in every single level outside of endgame is abhorrent, and only adds insult to injury. Low-Level Elites need to be removed entirely, or made PvE only.

    If you are not sure how to approach this, just ask the community. I promise the feedback you would receive would not only be flawless, it would also gain you a lot of respect as a company, something I think was in parts lost over this game's lifetime.

    5. Remove speed boosting rings and amulets from PvP entirely.

    This one's insultingly easy to implement. Why should a rooted str-bear be able to easily catch up to a dex-bird? It's just flawed logic, really. Not only that, but speed rings create large ping-related anomalies in which you can be hit across the map, behind trees, and in places where you should literally not be able die in (behind 2 walls, for example). Speed rings and amulets need to have their effects removed from PvP. Simple.

    6. Remove Enchantments from PvP entirely.

    Do I even need to explain this? Adding higher stats to already overpowered gear is not the solution to fixing PvP, like I assume it was intended to be.

    7. Fix the inconsistencies in PvE.

    Ebonthrax should not randomly one-hit entire parties behind gold. The Mana-Shielding bosses should not be able to stack shields infinitely, to the point where birds + barrels cannot kill them.

    8. Add farmable, campaign-specific vanities.

    This not only a brilliant idea for farmers and PvPers alike, it would help every single new/casual player level-up, meet new friends, learn about the game, and maybe even stick around for the journey. There is literally no reason not to add this - and it's really simple to do, too.

    9. Fix the economy.

    There's lots to say here, but I guess it relates mostly to things that have been touched on before: the rate of gold obtainability, the black market, and loot-crates.

    The first one makes it impossible for new players to obtain enough wealth to get to endgame. Literally impossible. Pets are pretty much a requirement, and sell for 8-figures, if not more. Besides that, there is also far too much artificial inflation in the game. Gold Events are not healthy for this game, and only add to the stupidly fast rate of inflation. Add some desirable gold sinks: gold-purchasable vanity packs, for example.

    The second will always be an unfixable problem, but I guess it's worth mentioning (again).

    And finally, loot crates. lol. Pocket Legends does not have the playerbase to support this feature in a way that is healthy for the f2p and p2w players alike. Locking necessary gear behind a paywall is absurd, and just a blatant cash-grab. Please tear down the pay-wall so that everyone can enjoy the game. Thanks!

    10. Do Something About the Toxicity.

    This game was almost too toxic for me to open some days. The report chat button seems almost useless, and /report somehow does less. I could dig and find a multitude of screenshots of conversations that are too toxic to even put on this forum.

    Tradable vanities, unbalanced PvP, and awful PvE have all in one way or another contributed to the large, unescapable wave of toxicity that seems to sit in this game now.

    Don't get me wrong, I've met some absolutely wonderful people on this game. Recently, apart from my friends, it seems that all there is in PL is toxicity.

    The simple fix is to make chat-bans more frequent, and add new abbreviations to the banned-words list (I can PM any Mod or Dev the most in-depth list of all the filter-avoiding slurs and strings I have seen. Upon request, of course :])

    If any, or all of these are implemented, I could see good things for game going forward. Right now, it's in a pretty bad spot.

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  3.   Click here to go to the next Dev post in this thread.   #2
    Design Department Cinco's Avatar
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    Let our friend burntoutdex know that I still wish them the very best :-)

    1. 2. - The voice of the community is fractious and varied. I can understand how a players' game experience would lead them to believe that the community has a consistent opinion... but it isn't true. As a matter of experience "listening to the community" is about advancing the game with features that wind up making some portion of the player base happy and another portion of it unhappy... over and over. The idea that "everyone can agree" on issue_x or feature_y is fiction.

    3. 4. 5. 6. - As mentioned above, the feedback on class balance and equipment related concerns is inconsistent (at best); oftentimes it is political, engineered to gain advantage in future clashes. This is not to say there isn't a bunch of great feedback out there, but the idea that it is part of some community consciousness is largely the feelings of a few vocal forum participants. I believe I have weighed in already on the fate of Enchantments.

    7. - Cool. I would love to hear more about specific instances (like Ebonthrax' one shots) that can be addressed. Laying a blanket concern about PvE imbalance, unfortunately, does not help me very much.

    8. - No. My time for PL development is at an all-time premium and the idea of enriching PvE with a wide variety of loot targets is entirely out of my scope. I intent to continue focusing on the development of new stuff for seasonal an PL-specific events.

    9. - Gold is free and you can get it by playing the game. I am unmoved by the idea that players cannot earn gold (as I see new characters doing it all the time). Finding new gold sinks sounds good to me. Black Market is what it is. Loot crates will remain and will continue to be adjusted and re-worked until the best balance can be found. Halloween will have at least one crate and the design for its odds will be based on the performance of previous items of this type.

    10 - Please contact the customer service department with information about toxic players. If you're sitting on screenshots of players being toxic it's not helping. Again: please send this information to our customer service department so that things improve.
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    Regarding point 8 and 9 and locking essential gear behind a paywall.

    I very much dislike this lottery type reward system. It makes no sense. This game always rewarded grinding. Nowadays all you need is money/Platinum. By solely focusing on seasonal events you take away the opportunity to compete for casual players. Essential gear locked behind a lottery just amplifies this problem.

    With your answer to points 1 - 6 you don't give much to discuss because all you said is that you see the feedback and chose to go the way you are now and you believe that is what is going to push the game forward. You clearly have a strong opinion on what is right for this game and your company. I disagree. And that is it. No point in having this discussion, really. Basically saying: don't like the game? Deal with it or quit.

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    Forum Adept MageFFA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinco View Post
    Let our friend burntoutdex know that I still wish them the very best :-)

    1. 2. - The voice of the community is fractious and varied. I can understand how a players' game experience would lead them to believe that the community has a consistent opinion... but it isn't true. As a matter of experience "listening to the community" is about advancing the game with features that wind up making some portion of the player base happy and another portion of it unhappy... over and over. The idea that "everyone can agree" on issue_x or feature_y is fiction.

    3. 4. 5. 6. - As mentioned above, the feedback on class balance and equipment related concerns is inconsistent (at best); oftentimes it is political, engineered to gain advantage in future clashes. This is not to say there isn't a bunch of great feedback out there, but the idea that it is part of some community consciousness is largely the feelings of a few vocal forum participants. I believe I have weighed in already on the fate of Enchantments.

    7. - Cool. I would love to hear more about specific instances (like Ebonthrax' one shots) that can be addressed. Laying a blanket concern about PvE imbalance, unfortunately, does not help me very much.

    8. - No. My time for PL development is at an all-time premium and the idea of enriching PvE with a wide variety of loot targets is entirely out of my scope. I intent to continue focusing on the development of new stuff for seasonal an PL-specific events.

    9. - Gold is free and you can get it by playing the game. I am unmoved by the idea that players cannot earn gold (as I see new characters doing it all the time). Finding new gold sinks sounds good to me. Black Market is what it is. Loot crates will remain and will continue to be adjusted and re-worked until the best balance can be found. Halloween will have at least one crate and the design for its odds will be based on the performance of previous items of this type.

    10 - Please contact the customer service department with information about toxic players. If you're sitting on screenshots of players being toxic it's not helping. Again: please send this information to our customer service department so that things improve.
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone who supports the current elite and enchant meta in twink PvP. It simply does not belong here. 30-35 use to be the most active levels in the game no matter the cap. There were more 30s than 76s in 76 cap and more 35s than 77-85 combined.

    Nowadays this level is a ghost town, even the people spamming elites the most agree that they shouldn't be in PvP let alone the game. If these items, elites and enchants, was created to help players in PvE events then why would they be put in PvP to cause such a great unbalance. Add the fact that honor costs 5 plat to even get and you're left with a dead player base.

    I could easily make the argument that elite based PvP is more unbalanced than legendary. Items like toy, reaper, paw, ect, gives 0 advantage in PvP down here as the farmable gear are already better than them. While elites on the other hand are mismatches. Even if we made it so that EVERYONE had elites it would still be unfair as mages with blaster and str armor beats everything with 0 trouble.

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    Senior Member Dolloway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinco View Post
    1. 2. - The voice of the community is fractious and varied. I can understand how a players' game experience would lead them to believe that the community has a consistent opinion... but it isn't true. As a matter of experience "listening to the community" is about advancing the game with features that wind up making some portion of the player base happy and another portion of it unhappy... over and over. The idea that "everyone can agree" on issue_x or feature_y is fiction.
    The community does seem to have a consistent opinion about a few things though: level 25 elites, enchantments, and Mythics (necessary gear to compete) being locked behind a paywall. If the community can form a consistent opinion about these things even though it is "fractitious and varied" on so many other things, then that's probably a good telling sign that there's something wrong.

    Level 25 elites - there is no better armor than Whamm to equip until level 60ish. This makes other gear until level 60s completely obsolete if you own this armor. Level 25 elites in general are so overpowered that they are better than level 55 Sewer gear, 30 levels higher. I get that these items are supposed to be 'elite', but perhaps you should make the level requirement higher for these items; maybe level 45 or 50. Besides, you're not going to get any other people to consistently open the old loot crates containing these items. The majority of the currently existing crates that will be opened trying to get these items have already been opened.

    Enchantments - enchants are going nowhere, but again, perhaps you can make it so that the current level requirement to equip level 30 rings and amulets is changed to level 50 where all other enchantments become unlocked (armor, weapon, shield). This level range was severely damaged by the increase of overpowered stats obtainable by level 25 elites and enchantments. In order to fix this, you can do the same thing that you did to Valiant Rings of Glory... increase the level requirement to equip these items.

    Mythics - I'm sure you're already aware of what the consensus about this issue is, but just to reiterate... Mythics (necessary gear to compete) shouldn't be locked behind a paywall. I am positive that the playerbase would have zero problem with anything else in the game being locked behind a paywall, whether that's faces, vanities, elixirs, etc. Stuff that isn't necessary to compete but can be extremely valuable. I haven't even seen a white Dinner Dress vanity armor being looted from a single crate in the entire game... and no one is complaining about this, even though thousands of Gold Dragon chests have probably been opened. It goes to show that people would be unbothered by the idea of such rare vanities being locked behind a paywall instead of necessary gear like Mythics.

    You also had a chance to somewhat make the Mythic issue better by introducing a vendor that sells these items for plat. However, platinum prices were so high that only a handful of people purchased these items. Instead of pleasing what could have been a significant amount of the playerbase, only a handful were able to obtain these items through purchase. The same amount of platinum if not more would have been spent purchasing these Mythics if they were set to more reasonable prices (I'm willing to bet more...) and you could have made many more players in our community happy. $300 for a 'set' that doesn't even include Mythic ring or amulet is not a good deal at all.

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    Senior Member plpr's Avatar
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    Default Burntoutdex's Solutions

    Quote Originally Posted by Cinco View Post
    I believe I have weighed in already on the fate of Enchantments.
    Not trying to be rude here but since when does You saying Enchantments arenít going anywhere outweigh your entire community saying we hate this feature take it out of the game? I thought the developers were supposed to change things the community wanted changed. Especially when Yes it is the majority that want it changed. Nearly a hundred Threads from unique players mentioning enchantments being terrible and pay to win (Pay to play at this point) isnít the minority. Make a poll for us and lets see if people want them to stay or go. If itís not 99% for going ill be more than shocked.


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    Forum Adept MageFFA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plpr View Post
    Not trying to be rude here but since when does You saying Enchantments aren’t going anywhere outweigh your entire community saying we hate this feature take it out of the game? I thought the developers were supposed to change things the community wanted changed. Especially when Yes it is the majority that want it changed. Nearly a hundred Threads from unique players mentioning enchantments being terrible and pay to win (Pay to play at this point) isn’t the minority. Make a poll for us and lets see if people want them to stay or go. If it’s not 99% for going ill be more than shocked.


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    If we made a poll on why majority of the player base quit I'm sure half of it will be because of enchants or elites. You can pretty much catergorize them to 'twink tampering'. When StS started tempering with PvP restricts in 2017 by making them 2 then removing them completely in early 2018 we ended up losing well past 60% of the games active players. Obviously this game never did heal from that but when PvP was fixed in mid 2018 the entire game felt more alive, from 15-76 you saw people. Hell i even revived 56 myself on Odin, then came enchants and poof all gone. Everyone left or stayed until StS raised the enchant cap to 100 and created elites.
    Last edited by MageFFA; 10-10-2019 at 07:26 AM.

  9.   Click here to go to the next Dev post in this thread.   #8
    Design Department Cinco's Avatar
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    With respect to polling / voting, etc. we have players voting (in terms of Platinum purchased and Enchantments rolled) every day. I don't enjoy saying this any more than you like hearing it but if the Enchantment system were not a success it would be gone. And the terms of 'success' for me relate to both revenues and sustained player activity. While certain 'twink' brackets did thrive, the overall population of Pocket Legends dropped to its lowest levels before I started adding new systems, new types of items, seasonal and one-off events. I think we all want to believe that participation at our favorite twink bracket is crucial to a game's success but there is a bigger picture - and for me, serving that bigger picture has meant introducing controversial features. I wish everybody could fall in love with these features but I know that's not reasonable :-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinco View Post
    With respect to polling / voting, etc. we have players voting (in terms of Platinum purchased and Enchantments rolled) every day. I don't enjoy saying this any more than you like hearing it but if the Enchantment system were not a success it would be gone. And the terms of 'success' for me relate to both revenues and sustained player activity. While certain 'twink' brackets did thrive, the overall population of Pocket Legends dropped to its lowest levels before I started adding new systems, new types of items, seasonal and one-off events. I think we all want to believe that participation at our favorite twink bracket is crucial to a game's success but there is a bigger picture - and for me, serving that bigger picture has meant introducing controversial features. I wish everybody could fall in love with these features but I know that's not reasonable :-)
    That being said, aside from larger balance changes in PvP and PvE, what is the reason for not implementing improvements to other game features, such as more gear loadout slots?

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    Design Department Cinco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fruitbattwo View Post
    such as more gear loadout slots?
    This is on my list of things to do. It's not high priority. Also it's going to take about as much time to do this as it will for me to make a new event from scratch (unfortunately the interface for Pocket Legends is unnecessarily complex).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinco View Post
    This is on my list of things to do. It's not high priority. Also it's going to take about as much time to do this as it will for me to make a new event from scratch (unfortunately the interface for Pocket Legends is unnecessarily complex).
    We could always just scrap the Halloween event this year and have this change instead!

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    It's common sense that you want to build on a strong foundation. PL now doesn't have such a thing. It survives on seasonal events. New, returning/casual players will log on and leave again because they can't catch up without adhering to the PL time schedule. These days you get stuck in Oktal or the latest abandoned ship campaign because you need an Oktal pet, armor with high health and preferably a good group. And then if you want to PvP you get oneshot by Mythicals that are locked. Twink levels were for transitioning or passing the time until you can get the required amount of gold and to endlevel. There are honestly more charming games out there if you enjoy the grind alone, so there is really no reason to stick around for that part of this game.

    Please at least consider giving quality-of-life type suggestions a higher priority. Identify and recognize the problem, and then see what solution is realistic and you think will help this game move forward. Player feedback is useful because we are the ones actually playing this game. You just look at at numbers.

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    Just want to get this straight. The reason people buy enchantments is not because they enjoy the stat boost. It is because they feel forced to because the insane advantages they give. Iíve never spoken with a player who has used platinum to roll enchantments and I talk to allot of players. At this point Iím not sure whoís even enchanting items. I guess maybe the 5 people at 110 pvp and a couple people for gold loot. I honestly donít see how this could make real money at this point.


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    Quote Originally Posted by plpr View Post
    Just want to get this straight. The reason people buy enchantments is not because they enjoy the stat boost. It is because they feel forced to because the insane advantages they give. Iíve never spoken with a player who has used platinum to roll enchantments and I talk to allot of players. At this point Iím not sure whoís even enchanting items. I guess maybe the 5 people at 110 pvp and a couple people for gold loot. I honestly donít see how this could make real money at this point.


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    Players might be telling you what they know you want to hear. I doubt that the spenders are going to risk the immense ridicule thatís sure to follow truthful discussion of their spending habits.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinco View Post
    Players might be telling you what they know you want to hear. I doubt that the spenders are going to risk the immense ridicule that’s sure to follow truthful discussion of their spending habits.


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    With all due respect. The only reason we have such a high spending rate on Enchants is because it feels like we are forced into it. When enchantment stats went from 30 max per slot to 50 max per slot it practically wrecked the entirety of 30-40 for enchants. All we've been asking for the last couple months was to either remove Enchantments from PvP in 30 or reduce their enchantment stats back down to 30 or lower per slot.

    Add elites into the mix and you have major complaints towards the system of the game because without a doubt, elite PvP is far more unbalanced than legendary. Again i cannot make this statement any less true, elite mages with blaster and str armor beats EVERYTHING. So how is this more fair than legendary PvP if everyone has the same gear yet still gets totally wrecked by a single class?

    We are not asking you to remove these items from game, we are asking you to balance them in PvP or just overall rid them of PvP. For no reason should any weapon in 25 excel past a L 20 plat hammer in terms of DMG, nor should any armor give endgame type stats in twink either. The entire function that elites were meant for PvE seems little more than flim flam. It's not proportional. L.1 Elites alone works good in PvE up to 25 so what's the reason for 25 to be even more OP? Enchants makes it so that a gearless player could solo the entirety of these events and still make gold so elites would be just overkill that helps nobody, outside of being the biggest exploit to PvP since tinsel and gleam worked in PvP.


    In case you didn't want to read this full ugly essay i advise just reading my last point. It's worth looking at.
    Last edited by MageFFA; 10-11-2019 at 08:18 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinco View Post
    Players might be telling you what they know you want to hear. I doubt that the spenders are going to risk the immense ridicule that’s sure to follow truthful discussion of their spending habits.


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    Spending ridicule shouldn't be a problem for anyone. In 80 cap when it launched people were spending millions on proj until magor, warat, arzac, came into the mix. We then spent tens of millions towards them. When the first vendor came one of my friends spent well past 300usd towards just the few pieces that was there. When the second vendor hit and it was the full set he spent even more than that. When intex, strax, and derex came he lost all the profit for the last gear and had to spend even more USD towards the game for them. Then 85 hit and there went well past 600usd-1200usd wasted and drained. That was 1 player alone of a, at the time still large player base in endgame, so what you think happened to the other?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MageFFA View Post
    Spending ridicule shouldn't be a problem for anyone.
    I agree with this point. It shouldn't be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinco View Post
    I agree with this point. It shouldn't be.
    So spending ridicule shouldn’t be part of the game, but essential pieces to endgame sets should be locked behind a gambling based paywall? Sounds like trying to get someone sober by taking them to a bar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinco View Post
    I agree with this point. It shouldn't be.
    And my other points?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MageFFA View Post
    And my other points?
    In particular: Honor doesnít cost Platinum!! :-)


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