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Thread: Paladin in Arena of Honor

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    Default Paladin in Arena of Honor

    I want to start off by saying this, the Paladin class can not compete to any class in Honor PvP, no matter what level it is. After tons of experimenting (a.k.a tons of deaths) I have a few suggestions for a Paladin buff that could make the class have a fighting chance versus the insane amount of damage the other classes do.



    1.) Let’s talk about Critical Hit:

    The Paladin’s critical hit percentage is only at a very low 36 fully buffed using the critical force buff “Vital Force”.

    - Let us compare this number to other classes:

    ~ Warrior: 54 Critical Hit fully buffed (includes
    +100 damage from the “Rage” buff)



    ~ Archer: 61 Critical Hit fully buffed



    ~ Ranger: 60 Critical Hit fully buffed



    ~ Enchantress: 52 Critical Hit fully buffed



    Now we can see from this simple comparison, the Paladin class 100% needs a critical hit buff to have any chance to compete.

    2.) The “Holy Tempest” Skill



    Holy Tempest does -30% hit for 3 seconds if landed, this is an extremely underpowered debuff, and this is the Paladin’s ONLY hit debuff. I think Holy Tempest should do -70% hit for 5 seconds with a 100% hit debuff if it actually lands, so it actually does it’s job. Most classes fully buffed will still have over 100% hit if Holy Tempest does land, which makes it a useless hit debuff.

    Another thing, Holy Tempest only has a 60% chance to debuff, meaning even if it lands it might not debuff the enemies hit, however, any other class with a hit debuff if it lands its 100% of the time a hit debuff, Holy Tempest is not. This needs a rework.

    - Let’s compare this hit debuff to other classes hit debuffs:

    ~ Archer: “Blinding Shot” does -70% hit for 5 seconds



    ~ Warrior: “Hell Scream” decreases damage by 70 and also does -70% hit



    ~ Enchantress: “Weakness” decreases damage by 70 and also does -70% hit



    I feel like if the Critical Hit & the Holy Tempest hit debuff was buffed on the Paladin, it would be able to compete with the other classes. As of right now, the Paladin has zero chance versus any class in 1v1’s or teams in the Arena of Honor. These issues have been going on for quite some time now, and even players who do not play Paladin agree with me that it is WAY to weak for Honor PvP.

    Thank you for reading!
    Last edited by Absolize; 11-06-2020 at 07:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absolize View Post
    I want to start off by saying this, the Paladin class can not compete to any class in Honor PvP, no matter what level it is. After tons of experimenting (a.k.a tons of deaths) I have a few suggestions for a Paladin buff that could make the class have a fighting chance versus the insane amount of damage the other classes do.



    1.) Let’s talk about Critical Hit:

    The Paladin’s critical hit percentage is only at a very low 36 fully buffed using the critical force buff “Vital Force”.

    - Let us compare this number to other classes:

    ~ Warrior: 54 Critical Hit fully buffed (includes
    +100 damage from the “Rage” buff)



    ~ Archer: 61 Critical Hit fully buffed



    ~ Ranger: 60 Critical Hit fully buffed



    ~ Enchantress: 52 Critical Hit fully buffed



    Now we can see from this simple comparison, the Paladin class 100% needs a critical hit buff to have any chance to compete.

    2.) The “Holy Tempest” Skill



    Holy Tempest does -30% hit for 3 seconds if landed, this is an extremely underpowered debuff, and this is the Paladin’s ONLY hit debuff. I think Holy Tempest should do -70% hit for 5 seconds with a 100% hit debuff if it actually lands, so it actually does it’s job. Most classes fully buffed will still have over 100% hit if Holy Tempest does land, which makes it a useless hit debuff.

    Another thing, Holy Tempest only has a 60% chance to debuff, meaning even if it lands it might not debuff the enemies hit, however, any other class with a hit debuff if it lands its 100% of the time a hit debuff, Holy Tempest is not. This needs a rework.

    - Let’s compare this hit debuff to other classes hit debuffs:

    ~ Archer: “Blinding Shot” does -70% hit for 5 seconds



    ~ Warrior: “Hell Scream” decreases damage by 70 and also does -70% hit



    ~ Enchantress: “Weakness” decreases damage by 70 and also does -70% hit



    I feel like if the Critical Hit & the Holy Tempest hit debuff was buffed on the Paladin, it would be able to compete with the other classes. As of right now, the Paladin has zero chance versus any class in 1v1’s or teams in the Arena of Honor. These issues have been going on for quite some time now, and even players who do not play Paladin agree with me that it is WAY to weak for Honor PvP.

    Thank you for reading!
    For someone who has mained Rhino his entire PL career, Hook makes many valid suggestions that should be considered. Will drop a thanks when I'm on a computer!

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    I always felt that for rhinos to be a viable class in PvP, twink and endgame, they would need to be defensively superior than their opponents while having their offensive capabilities be used for team fights. I was fooling around with my 71 rhino, historically rhinos were one of the worst classes there, and i tried different forms of builds vs the updated IB bear. Here is what i got.

    Bears without a doubt is the best class in 71 ever since Iron Blood was buffed. They curb stomp mages and birds alike, rarely do they lose health. With rhino if i tried to invest into my offensive build i would end up just the same as every other class, but if i went into a defensive build i start to win majority of my fights against the bear. This is achieved by invest max points into all armor buffs, Guardian and Stone, 9 into restore, 9 into H/s Debuffs, Rhino Might and Summon, 9 into Vital Force for debuffs, and the trump card Brutal Force. Brutal Force will give me a edge against the bear by giving me sheer H/s and Dodge. While in a fight the bear barely has the ability to keep up once i start using all my skills in conjunction. The fight plays out with me constantly debuffing his H/s and Hit while I'm slowly chipping damage on his health.

    Since rhino is a paladin class it focuses mostly on team support. This here is the summary of what a Paladin does,"Most of these powers relate to providing benefits to those around the Paladin. These include healing and curing of disease, morale in combat and turning of undead." As you can see not all of the abilities pallies can do translate to PL but the important onces are Healing and curing of diseases, Curing of diseases mean removing negative debuffs for your party, and Morale in combat, providing any forms of buffs whether damage and armor. With that being noted let's talk about how we can redo the class.

    These following skills do not need to be changed because they are good where they are now. Charge, Restore, Meditation, Guardian, Holy Tempest, and Revive. Those skills are balanced perfectly in my opinion. That leaves Rhino Might, Redemption, Brute Force, Summon, Vital Force, and stone. Let's work from there.

    Rhino might is a CC that debuffs the enemies H/s. As you level it up it has a chance to stun. I would personally prefer if the Debuff on H/s was increased to be slightly higher. At level 6 it only debuffs -8 H/s and at level 10 it only debuffs -22. A better number would be L.6=-12 and level 10=-30.

    Redemption could be done better. People keep complaining that it des x2 Damage, and while i disagree i am up for change. Remove the damage multiplier and replace it with a stun. The stun should be only activated on combo. Redemption should also have a chance to debuff armor. 30 should be the max that can be debuffed at level 10. Cinco can do the rest from there.

    Brute Force is a skill i hated until recently. It offers up such interesting gameplay and opportunities towards new forms of tank builds. I would increase the total amount of H/s that is given at every level for the skill. Along with buffing the total H/s i would also increase how much total armor is given to my teammates. 25 should be set to max. Rhinos should NOT benefit from party buff on Brute Force.

    Summon is a great skill but i think the devs missed a shot with it. Increasing the total H/s reduction would be excellent but also introducing a Mana debuff would be neat also. Mages are easily the worst matchup that a rhino can have. Even if you manage to crack their HP you'd be left with having to now deal with their MP thanks to Mana Shield. If Summon could debuff M/s it would end the cycle of rhinos being pushed over by mages thanks to their M/s and bears thanks to their H/s.

    Vital Force is the best party buff in game. It just so happens to be placed on a class that barely can do much with it. Incrasing the total damage the buff gives while only leaving a fraction of it as a individual buff would be excellent and weed off all complaints. Hit and Crit stats don't meed to be chanced.

    Stone just needs more armor. Even when paired with guardian it's still not a significant thing buff compared to other classes. Buffing the total armor given is the best option. Another option would be giving Stone a HP instead of increasing armor. Consider the fact that rhinos possess the lowest total HP stats of ALL classes it would be logical to decrease the gap between rhinos and bears. The more the health a class has the more demanding the heals would be. H/s carries restore after all. This would be a double edged sword if done correctly.

    This is my personal opinion on whats best for rhino.

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    Doesn’t seem like it’s much but it makes sense for this buff to happen seeing how weak rhino is, where as fox can compete still along side the other classes due to having decent hit debuffs and around the same crit buff.

    Also would be nice to see cinco actually show love to the only good pvp in the game and separate 100 honors from elite honors 105. Seems like nowadays cinco will only respond to threads bashing enchants and asking for them to be removed and ignoring actual suggestions.

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    I agree that this buff is long overdue, and I think the suggestions put forward by Hook are more than appropriate. The crit issue is certainly something that should be looked at, and the hit debuff on Holy Tempest has to be the saddest thing as it stands atm.

    I recently 1v1'ed Hook to see how an experienced Rhino can fair vs. Fox. Although these were 1v1, I think they are still indicative of where Rhino can be buffed. The primary reason I say this is because the hit debuff couldn't even get me below 100% hit chance.... when it did hit. I can't stress enough how much an increase to the amount of hit debuffed on Holy Tempest would help Rhino, while not taking the chance of making it a crazy powerhouse.

    Given that Holy Tempest is AOE, I would urge the consideration of raising the hit debuff to 55-60%, adding much needed utility for the rhino to work with. I think that given the "chance to debuff" nature of the ability, this is more than reasonable. I would also support raising the crit chance fully buffed to 45-50, this would make it more competitive with the other classes while still making it the lowest (for reference, the mage is the second lowest and gets 52).

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    Quote Originally Posted by MageFFA View Post
    I always felt that for rhinos to be a viable class in PvP, twink and endgame, they would need to be defensively superior than their opponents while having their offensive capabilities be used for team fights. I was fooling around with my 71 rhino, historically rhinos were one of the worst classes there, and i tried different forms of builds vs the updated IB bear. Here is what i got.

    Bears without a doubt is the best class in 71 ever since Iron Blood was buffed. They curb stomp mages and birds alike, rarely do they lose health. With rhino if i tried to invest into my offensive build i would end up just the same as every other class, but if i went into a defensive build i start to win majority of my fights against the bear. This is achieved by invest max points into all armor buffs, Guardian and Stone, 9 into restore, 9 into H/s Debuffs, Rhino Might and Summon, 9 into Vital Force for debuffs, and the trump card Brutal Force. Brutal Force will give me a edge against the bear by giving me sheer H/s and Dodge. While in a fight the bear barely has the ability to keep up once i start using all my skills in conjunction. The fight plays out with me constantly debuffing his H/s and Hit while I'm slowly chipping damage on his health.

    Since rhino is a paladin class it focuses mostly on team support. This here is the summary of what a Paladin does,"Most of these powers relate to providing benefits to those around the Paladin. These include healing and curing of disease, morale in combat and turning of undead." As you can see not all of the abilities pallies can do translate to PL but the important onces are Healing and curing of diseases, Curing of diseases mean removing negative debuffs for your party, and Morale in combat, providing any forms of buffs whether damage and armor. With that being noted let's talk about how we can redo the class.

    These following skills do not need to be changed because they are good where they are now. Charge, Restore, Meditation, Guardian, Holy Tempest, and Revive. Those skills are balanced perfectly in my opinion. That leaves Rhino Might, Redemption, Brute Force, Summon, Vital Force, and stone. Let's work from there.

    Rhino might is a CC that debuffs the enemies H/s. As you level it up it has a chance to stun. I would personally prefer if the Debuff on H/s was increased to be slightly higher. At level 6 it only debuffs -8 H/s and at level 10 it only debuffs -22. A better number would be L.6=-12 and level 10=-30.

    Redemption could be done better. People keep complaining that it des x2 Damage, and while i disagree i am up for change. Remove the damage multiplier and replace it with a stun. The stun should be only activated on combo. Redemption should also have a chance to debuff armor. 30 should be the max that can be debuffed at level 10. Cinco can do the rest from there.

    Brute Force is a skill i hated until recently. It offers up such interesting gameplay and opportunities towards new forms of tank builds. I would increase the total amount of H/s that is given at every level for the skill. Along with buffing the total H/s i would also increase how much total armor is given to my teammates. 25 should be set to max. Rhinos should NOT benefit from party buff on Brute Force.

    Summon is a great skill but i think the devs missed a shot with it. Increasing the total H/s reduction would be excellent but also introducing a Mana debuff would be neat also. Mages are easily the worst matchup that a rhino can have. Even if you manage to crack their HP you'd be left with having to now deal with their MP thanks to Mana Shield. If Summon could debuff M/s it would end the cycle of rhinos being pushed over by mages thanks to their M/s and bears thanks to their H/s.

    Vital Force is the best party buff in game. It just so happens to be placed on a class that barely can do much with it. Incrasing the total damage the buff gives while only leaving a fraction of it as a individual buff would be excellent and weed off all complaints. Hit and Crit stats don't meed to be chanced.

    Stone just needs more armor. Even when paired with guardian it's still not a significant thing buff compared to other classes. Buffing the total armor given is the best option. Another option would be giving Stone a HP instead of increasing armor. Consider the fact that rhinos possess the lowest total HP stats of ALL classes it would be logical to decrease the gap between rhinos and bears. The more the health a class has the more demanding the heals would be. H/s carries restore after all. This would be a double edged sword if done correctly.

    This is my personal opinion on whats best for rhino.
    That's interesting that is. So rhino essentially only has one counter at 71 which is mages. Does tank rhino fare well vs birds and foxes also? I'm under the impression that it still does since rhino can just kite and stun fox while being immune to their armour shred debuff.
    Time to find me a beastly set and lvl my rhino. I've always wanted a good lvl for my rhino and 56 wasn't it.

    I did fight ur 71 rhino but I wasn't using beastly but a dex set so didnt get the health bonus from str set. I hope you drew ur conclusions from fighting a 71 beastly bear and not on our fights lel.
    Last edited by Vapourised; 11-06-2020 at 11:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vapourised View Post
    That's interesting that is. So rhino essentially only has one counter at 71 which is mages. Does tank rhino fare well vs birds and foxes also? I'm under the impression that it still does since rhino can just kite and stun fox while being immune to their armour shred debuff.
    Time to find me a beastly set and lvl my rhino. I've always wanted a good lvl for my rhino and 56 wasn't it.
    At 71 rhinos will out tank birds enough to win by default. Rhinos are and has always been a direct counter to birds. Hit buff makes it so blind doesn't do as much either. Foxes is a tricky matchup. The fox main objective is to end the fight early and not let it go the distance. The tempo of the fight will be set the minute the rhino starts using summon and rhino might. Now you're on a time limit. Just losing 18 H/s alone is significant. Timing shred is upmost important. This plays exactly like how bear rhino is but the difference is that the bear is strong enough to force the rhino back to save it's own life. If it goes the distance it's still anyones game, though the rhino will win the majority.

    Mage v rhino is just a automatic stomp. If they don't kill you initially on combo then once they M/s call it quits. Redemption doesn't give HP back when comboed on MS.

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    Also Paladin is a class that doesn't need damage buffs to win against non-healing classes. If the level is balanced and is Regeneration dominant then they can control the fight to their advantage unless the regen is far more than what the rhino can debuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MageFFA View Post
    At 71 rhinos will out tank birds enough to win by default. Rhinos are and has always been a direct counter to birds. Hit buff makes it so blind doesn't do as much either. Foxes is a tricky matchup. The fox main objective is to end the fight early and not let it go the distance. The tempo of the fight will be set the minute the rhino starts using summon and rhino might. Now you're on a time limit. Just losing 18 H/s alone is significant. Timing shred is upmost important. This plays exactly like how bear rhino is but the difference is that the bear is strong enough to force the rhino back to save it's own life. If it goes the distance it's still anyones game, though the rhino will win the majority.

    Mage v rhino is just a automatic stomp. If they don't kill you initially on combo then once they M/s call it quits. Redemption doesn't give HP back when comboed on MS.
    Yeah about foxes. They seem to be pretty easy to beat as rhino at 56. I always keep foxes far away and even if they get close, they have to to usually use a number of skills to wear down the rhino but they're pushed back the moment they catch up. Tempest counters fox pretty well imo with the knockback and stun. Had a few FFAs with Nae's fox so that's how I came to this conclusion. Both of us were using mace sets.

    Maybe it's different at 71 im not sure.
    Last edited by Vapourised; 11-06-2020 at 12:05 PM.

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    Also correct me if I'm wrong but once a mage uses ms, you can't health sap with redemption let alone drain. If you use those skills on a shielded mage, it just does damage to their mana pool without any regeneration.

    This is one of the big issues for rhino when fighting a mage since rhino depends on getting their hp back. The same is true when a mage casts drain on a shielded mage (I think?).

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    Stop asking for balance changes I want more vanities to show off in town. Cinco please make new vanities pls

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bidigeldi View Post
    Stop asking for balance changes I want more vanities to show off in town. Cinco please make new vanities pls
    No, if you played rhino in the Honor Arena you would understand why I can’t have fun at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bidigeldi View Post
    Stop asking for balance changes I want more vanities to show off in town. Cinco please make new vanities pls
    Events are monthly while changes to PvP happens once every 2-3 years. Calm yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bidigeldi View Post
    Stop asking for balance changes I want more vanities to show off in town. Cinco please make new vanities pls

    This thread needs to address lv 100 honor rhino. That was the original poster's intent and I think a discussion on that is what we need here.

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    I've been thinking:

    Very slightly reduce the cooldown on holy tempest? Imo it's the most important skill for rhino that deals consistent damage. That combined with increased crit and tempest having 100% chance (because who liked RNG?) to hit you with a greater debuff could bring rhinos into the meta (finally).

    Just a suggestion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vapourised View Post
    I've been thinking:

    Very slightly reduce the cooldown on holy tempest? Imo it's the most important skill for rhino that deals consistent damage. That combined with increased crit and tempest having 100% chance (because who liked RNG?) to hit you with a greater debuff could bring rhinos into the meta (finally).

    Just a suggestion.
    I feel Holy Tempest should last 5 seconds (both the stun and hit debuff) with -60 to -70% hit and the cooldown should be 7 seconds, same concept as the Blind Shot on the bird. Also think the hit debuff should 100% work anytime I use it and it lands.
    Last edited by Absolize; 11-06-2020 at 03:37 PM.

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    I would also like to add, because I have done some testing as well. The healing is so low with the L105 honor set. As a mage/ tank, paladin runs very low with its heals in a L105 set.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absolize View Post
    I feel Holy Tempest should last 5 seconds (both the stun and hit debuff) with -60 to -70% hit and the cooldown should be 7 seconds, same concept as the Blind Shot on the bird. Also think the hit debuff should 100% work anytime I use it and it lands.
    I don't want to be debuffed and displaced 80% of the time with the iterability of a 7 second cooldown. That is soooooo overkill.

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    I really don't feel like doing forum ATM, but just in case If i check n find this type of thread, ehh

    What about rhino team buff and fast move skills, those r skills too, that's not the way u compare skills for a particular thing that's weak for a particular class.

    Rhino in a team is quite viable if not op under certain circumstances, what's about that, wanna make rhion op in team fight? Ya I'm talking about honor and forget what it will bring to myth pvp, RIP (if not already)

    I really don't understand what fox n rhino players want? Lazily click with mouse yet opponent is dead, ya in honor pvp
    Fox was already buffed - unjustified. Forget about the tp and stand glitch they always do, there need a fix for that otherwise these classes should be banned in pvp in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waug View Post
    I really don't feel like doing forum ATM, but just in case If i check n find this type of thread, ehh

    What about rhino team buff and fast move skills, those r skills too, that's not the way u compare skills for a particular thing that's weak for a particular class.

    Rhino in a team is quite viable if not op under certain circumstances, what's about that, wanna make rhion op in team fight? Ya I'm talking about honor and forget what it will bring to myth pvp, RIP (if not already)

    I really don't understand what fox n rhino players want? Lazily click with mouse yet opponent is dead, ya in honor pvp
    Fox was already buffed - unjustified. Forget about the tp and stand glitch they always do, there need a fix for that otherwise these classes should be banned in pvp in the first place.
    The teleport glitch is not a glitch Rhino and Fox can willingly do, it’s a glitch in the game. And for the last time, no one is talking about Mythic PvP. Mythic PvP stats are so high that no debuff serves a purpose anyway, and birds and foxes are the best Mythic PvP classes in my personal opinion. But again, save Mythic PvP for another thread, I’m discussing a clear problem with all the screenshots anyone needs to see Rhinos stats are a lot worse than all the other classes.

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