Fixing the Attribute Imbalance: How to make Int and Str worthwhile investments :D

[Royce]

It is obvious that the attributes are currently a bit out of whack. All one has to do to see this is look at how characters are built. A warrior will put just enough points in Str to equip their gear and then the rest in Dex. A mage will put just enough points in Int to equip their gear, and then the rest in Dex. An archer will put everything in Dex. Why? Because currently Dex provides far more bang for your attribute point buck than either Str or Int. Dex is overpowered, and this needs to be changed. Character building is not fun or challenging, it is merely a matter of knowing how much of your primary attribute you need for gear and then maxing Dex. I recently suggested having Str contribute more and Dex contribute less to base damage, but the thread has likely already been forgotten ( http://www.spacetimestudios.com/show...more-to-damage ). I have here 2 new ideas for your consideration.

1. Have all 3 attributes contribute equally to damage
Ultimately it would be better in my opinion if Str provided the most base damage, Dex gave a boost to weapons speed, and Int determined the power of skills, but this is complicated and I am not going to get my hopes up. Having all three attributes raise base damage by the same amount is a decent compromise I think. If someone is raising Str you can assume they are using a sword or axe, etc and it makes sense that Str would raise their damage. If someone is raising Dex, they will be using a bow or the like, and it makes sense that Dex would raise their damage. If someone is raising Int, then they will be using a magic weapon and it makes sense that Int would increase their damage. So maybe all 3 attributes should raise base damage by the same amount.

2. Dramatically increase the rate at which H/s is gained from Str and M/s is gained from Int
Currently the amount of regen gained from attributes is so minimal as to be almost laughable. A mage who spends 200 attribute points in Int will only have 4 piddly M/s to show for it. I think this number should be 2 to 3 times as high. And the same should go for raising Str and gaining H/s. Under the current system, it would take a level 50 or so mage spending every single point in Int to naturally get just the 6 M/s provided by a single piece of Thoth gear. This is way out of whack in my opinion. A mage with 200 points in Int should have 10-12 or so natural M/s, and a warrior with 200 Str should have 10-12 or so natural H/s. This would make what are currently the lesser attributes more attractive and add complexity to character building and might actually lead to a situation where everyone does not have the exact same stat build (which would be a nice change ).

What do people think?

[Cascade]

I didn't read the whole thing but I'm liking what I'm reading so far the devs need to check this out.

[Greeve]

I'd say keep dex as it is, but buff the other attributes in a way to make them more meaningful along the lines of h/s and m/s like you suggest. In addition to this, perhaps add secondary and tertiary attributes to weapons and armor that kick in if a character has a certain amount of int/str/dex. Meaning perhaps a helm will have a primary str requirement to wear it of say 50 like it does now(low level example), but if you have 25 dex you get an additional set of stats that are unlocked on the item, and if you have 15 int perhaps you get another set of stats unlocked on it. It would make gear choices more interesting as well.

[FluffNStuff]

I want to put out some examples of the ridiculousness of items to accentuate your point number 2.

Isis: 8% dodge, 6 h/s.
To get this bonus from pure stats would require 160 Dex and 300 Strength.
Thoth: 3% Crit, 6 m/s
Bonus from stats would require 21 dex and 300 intelligence.

Now consider people wear four of these, and it shows why the current m/s and h/s from Stats is completely useless.

[FluffNStuff]

Another thought, what if m/s and h/s were percentage based. This would also include bonuses from items. It would be important though that STR give at LEAST 1 health and INT gives at LEAST 1 mana.

[bmc85uk]

I completely agree with your first point, I think that not even as a makeshift compromise, str, dex and int should power their respective weapons, this would negate the need for so much dex even with a str or int build.

With skill power, I still maintain the opinion that skills should be powered by a linked attribute individually; not as a class locked group. Evasion (the skill) should be fed by dex, it wouldn't make sense for a str bear to have a strong dodge boost from skills, as a tank shouldn't really be evasive, the dex bear would then become a kind of evasive dps tank class. Melée attack skills could be powered by str, ranged attack skills by dex and 'spell' skills by int. Some skills such as a birds root/screams could be powered by both dex or int, and perhaps warrior screams by both str and int allowing hybrids to have a little skill strength in certain areas if needed.

With H/s and M/s, while I do agree with you, I think that they should be powered more by a Health/Mana per level system, naturally maintaining the same rate of regeneration (percentage wise) when uninfluenced by str/int; otherwise, if left unchecked, a characters regeneration would slowly become obsolete in comparison to a character spec-ed with more str/int. Str/int should then still give more of a boost than it currently does, perhaps around +1 per 15 points (unlike the +1 per 40-ish it gives currently). It's important for people to note that regen; while having thresholds for whole number increase, does actually increase gradually from str/int, but the stats screen only displays whole numbers. Characters start with around 0.5 regen, the first threshold being around 20, and then every 40 or so points after that.

With a change to the way str/int affects regen and skills, I do think that they should also offer some increase in hit% for their respective weapons & skills. Perhaps not as much as dex, but definitely to some degree so that people aren't forced to still stack dex for the needed hit boost.

[Raxie]

i'm a paladin and if I put 142 strength I have about 80 stats left over. however unlike most people after testing and respecing my character 15 times, i realized that the remaining stats into dex isn't actually that great. i distributed my stats into dex and intel after testing and people who have the remaining stats into dex only have like 6 more critical and 2 more dodge than me which is hardly a difference.
unless your main stat is dex i don't think it is useful to put the remaining stats into dex. the only useful thing it really does is increase dps.
this is all my opinion, feel free to disagree.

[Royce]

unless your main stat is dex i don't think it is useful to put the remaining stats into dex. the only useful thing it really does is increase dps.
this is all my opinion, feel free to disagree.

I do, and so does just about everyone if you look at the builds out there :P
For an enchantress:
Dex raises Hit% 5 times as fast as Int does
Dex raises crit 3 times as fast as Int does
Dex raises DPS twice as fast as Int does
Dex provides Dodge and Armor which you can't get from Int
There's a good summary here: http://www.spacetimestudios.com/show...fo-%2848142%29
Basically what Int gives you is 0.5 mana per Int point, and 0.02 M/s per Int point. And remember, all this data is for enchantresses, who get greater (less pathetic might be a better way to put it) benefits than other classes from adding to Int. Int really doesn't hold a candle to Dex at this point, unless you're a true support mage who does nothing but heal, rez, buff, and debuff.

[Raxie]

i agree dex is the best stat but only if it is the main stat. if i was an archer or ranger, i would definitely go all dex but i'm talking about a paladin because i'm a paladin. if you put 142 strength, the remaining stats into dex is actually useless. i don't have my remaining stats into dex and the paladin with the remaining stats into dex only have like 3 more dodge and 6 more critical than me.
even full pure dex archers have only 36 dodge and critical and without their buffs, they hardly critical or dodge. i had a full dex bowbear and he hardly did a critical or even dodge without the buffs.

[Royce]

Well, here's the thing, Dex, as I outlined in my previous post, does far more for you per attribute point than Int does. So it's really just a matter of scale whether it's your primary or secondary attribute. Either way, Dex is doing more for you for each point you spend than Int is. It's not like the benefits increase as you get higher values of attributes. It is a constant, uniform (essentially) gain of stats per attribute point.

[bmc85uk]

GoXu you say that you put your 80 remaining points into dex and int, I'd be interested to see what ratio that is.

I'm guessing as you have 3 less dodge and 6 less crit than someone with maxed dex as secondary that you've gone 20/60 for dex and int, gaining an extra 1.5M/s and 30 mana.

Not something I'd say is really worth it, and that's without even taking damage & hit increases from the 60 dex you've missed into consideration.

[Royce]

I'm guessing as you have 3 less dodge and 6 less crit than someone with maxed dex as secondary

80 points of Dex gives an enchantress 12 Crit and 4 Dodge, plus 40% hit and 8 DPS (the same amount of Int gives an enchantress a smidge over 4 DPS).

Not something I'd say is really worth it, and that's without even taking damage & hit increases from the 60 dex you've missed into consideration.

In addition, consider the fact that as a pally with primary strenth, you get only minimal increase to Hit%, no Crit, and no Dodge, as well as barely increased damage (all this because Str is the tertiary enchantress attribute). 30-40 Mana is only a 10-13% increase in mana pool size, and 1.5-2 M/s is not much to show for your Int investment, particularly since it would account for about 7% of your regen if you wear Thoth as most paladins do.

[Raxie]

the only reason why i don't think dex is that good is because all the stats it adds are all chance apart from dps.
having 27 critical will rarely critical unless you have buff and having 6 dodge won't get you anywhere. however, if i put some stats into intel, the points are actually 'real' and 'solid' because they actually increase my mana pool. this is not chance. this is my logic; however, this is my opinion.

[sechs]

It is obvious that the attributes are currently a bit out of whack. All one has to do to see this is look at how characters are built. A warrior will put just enough points in Str to equip their gear and then the rest in Dex. A mage will put just enough points in Int to equip their gear, and then the rest in Dex. An archer will put everything in Dex. Why? Because currently Dex provides far more bang for your attribute point buck than either Str or Int. Dex is overpowered, and this needs to be changed. Character building is not fun or challenging, it is merely a matter of knowing how much of your primary attribute you need for gear and then maxing Dex. I recently suggested having Str contribute more and Dex contribute less to base damage, but the thread has likely already been forgotten ( http://www.spacetimestudios.com/show...more-to-damage ). I have here 2 new ideas for your consideration.

1. Have all 3 attributes contribute equally to damage
Ultimately it would be better in my opinion if Str provided the most base damage, Dex gave a boost to weapons speed, and Int determined the power of skills, but this is complicated and I am not going to get my hopes up. Having all three attributes raise base damage by the same amount is a decent compromise I think. If someone is raising Str you can assume they are using a sword or axe, etc and it makes sense that Str would raise their damage. If someone is raising Dex, they will be using a bow or the like, and it makes sense that Dex would raise their damage. If someone is raising Int, then they will be using a magic weapon and it makes sense that Int would increase their damage. So maybe all 3 attributes should raise base damage by the same amount.

2. Dramatically increase the rate at which H/s is gained from Str and M/s is gained from Int
Currently the amount of regen gained from attributes is so minimal as to be almost laughable. A mage who spends 200 attribute points in Int will only have 4 piddly M/s to show for it. I think this number should be 2 to 3 times as high. And the same should go for raising Str and gaining H/s. Under the current system, it would take a level 50 or so mage spending every single point in Int to naturally get just the 6 M/s provided by a single piece of Thoth gear. This is way out of whack in my opinion. A mage with 200 points in Int should have 10-12 or so natural M/s, and a warrior with 200 Str should have 10-12 or so natural H/s. This would make what are currently the lesser attributes more attractive and add complexity to character building and might actually lead to a situation where everyone does not have the exact same stat build (which would be a nice change ).

What do people think?

i agree with Royce.

maybe point 1 can be modified a bit, by linking different attribute to different weapons, e.g. int only adds damage to magical weapons, dex only adds damage to ranged weapon etc. and have no effect if a high int person is using melee weapon....

[darcsdude]

Well than that makes it pretty simple, if this was true about dex being the best stat per se. People would just max their primary for weapon reqs then dump everything into dex.

Basically Str/Dex bears instead of pure Str bears
Primary Dex (only dex) Birds
And Int/Dex Mages instead of pure Int Mages.

[Royce]

FYI guys this thread is old news
The attribute imbalance and overpowered Dex was pretty well taken care of during the rebalance, though I still think stat-driven weapon damage would be cool (Int powering Mage weapons, Str melee weapons, and Dex ranged weapons).