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  Click here to go to the first Dev post in this thread.   Thread: Paladin in Arena of Honor (2022)

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    Forum Adept Absolize's Avatar
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    Default Paladin in Arena of Honor (2022)

    I have made a thread on this topic in the past and considering nothing has been done regarding this matter I feel I should give it another shot, I really want these suggestions to be considered so I can have an enjoyable experience in Honor PvP, along with whoever I am teaming with so they don’t have to suffer as well.

    I want to start off by saying this, the Paladin class can not compete to any class in Honor PvP, no matter what level it is. After tons of experimenting (a.k.a tons of deaths) I have a few suggestions for a Paladin buff that could make the class have a fighting chance versus the insane amount of damage the other classes do.



    1.) Let’s talk about Critical Hit:

    The Paladin’s critical hit percentage is only at a very low 36 fully buffed using the critical force buff “Vital Force”.



    - Let us compare this number to other classes:

    ~ Warrior: 54 Critical Hit fully buffed (includes
    +100 damage from the “Rage” buff)




    ~ Archer: 61 Critical Hit fully buffed




    ~ Ranger: 60 Critical Hit fully buffed




    ~ Enchantress: 52 Critical Hit fully buffed






    Now we can see from this simple comparison, the Paladin class 100% needs a critical hit buff to have any chance to compete.

    2.) The “Holy Tempest” Skill



    Holy Tempest does -30% hit for 3 seconds if landed, this is an extremely underpowered debuff, and this is the Paladin’s ONLY hit debuff. It has a current -30% hit, but if the skill lands it only has a 60% chance to actually debuff them. Meaning even if it lands it doesn’t always debuff their hit. With that being said, I think Holy Tempest should do -65% hit for 5 seconds with a 7 second cooldown. Most classes fully buffed will still have over 100% hit if Holy Tempest does land, which makes it a useless hit debuff without the changes above.

    - Let’s compare this hit debuff to other classes hit debuffs:

    ~ Archer: “Blinding Shot” does -70% hit for 5 seconds




    ~ Warrior: “Hell Scream” decreases damage by 70 and also does -70% hit




    ~ Enchantress: “Weakness” decreases damage by 70 and also does -70% hit




    3.) The “Restore” Skill

    As you can see, the restore skill has a 5 second cooldown, compared to the Enchantresses 3 second cooldown. This is a major issue in FFA scenarios due to the Enchantress being able to out heal, out damage & out debuff the Paladin. I’m not asking for the Paladin’s heal to be increased, all I’m asking is the cooldown is slightly less than 5 seconds, I feel it would be a huge difference maker on the Paladin being viable in 3v3 or 2v2 situations.






    I feel like if the Restore cooldown was less than 5 seconds, the Critical Hit & the Holy Tempest hit debuff was buffed on the Paladin, it would be able to compete with the other classes. As of right now, the Paladin has zero chance versus any class in 1v1’s or teams in the Arena of Honor. These issues have been going on for quite some time now, and even players who do not play Paladin agree with me that it is WAY to weak for Honor PvP.

    I hope to see the devs look into the statistics and see that some work with the class needs to be done in order to make it a viable class in 1v1’s and in team play, like all other classes are.

    I don’t feel the class serves it’s purpose, and it keeps me and other players who want to play Paladin from playing honor with it.

    Thank you for reading, any input and/or suggestions is also appreciated.


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    Last edited by Absolize; 01-05-2022 at 11:34 AM.

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    I definitely feel rhino in an honors stand point is nearly unusable... I am not a rhino main by any means, But if Cinco could figure a way out to fix how they are played in honor I think that would be a big step in the right direction for the class at endgame.

    "Never mess with a man that can end you, from a different zip code."-Sniper

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    I think you forgot something, time to remind that, for a complete picture. An equation can never be matched until every bit taken into consideration, right?

    1- Rhino can dash, that no other class can except another one called Fox, lets call these classes Dash-ers

    A. Dashing is the skill that causes multiple bugs, the way it favors only the dash-ers, the reason no dash-er complain about those BUGS. NEVER EVER. Those bugs include -

    i. Being un-targatable until the Dash-er comes back into action again.
    ii. Teleport all the way through the map (as long as the radius of a map)

    iii. Then there's this bug, that every dash-ers practice to exploit, that is teleporting back from obstacles, back from tree in forest or back from wall in CTF. When you dash back from obstacle, it makes you invisible and penetrate through the obstacle while dashing until you reach the destination.
    Tell me this is not intentional? also tell me dash-ers don't practice this in ctf and forest all the time? not to mention, due to double dash foxes are even worst at these bugs.

    B. Range is a huge factor in classic pl, and till to this date. Dash-ers breaks the classic range mechanics of pl the main reason, these two classes are the Disgrace to PL pvp. Not trying to be harsh to the players, I'm just criticizing the classes and it's system. Not even talking about the things that revolve around this either in 1v1 or in team play, the unexpected or the exploitative factors adds up to it, if I mention those points, this will get more lengthy.


    2 - Paladins has high amount of self buff and also team buff. The self buff is pretty strong and good to tank while it last, no way you compare it with anything else only except a bear, even then you're sitting on those that bear don't have even in this point of discussion. Although bear is also in the edge, the extra armor of bear buff ( 200 armor) was provided earlier to balance this class in the Myth pvp in the past, which makes it not idle for honor. The amount a bear can tank while doing damage is unbalanced.

    ______________

    Dashing should be nerfed in the first place and Fixed the bugs.
    Earlier honor fox buff was UNJUSTIFIED.
    Last edited by Waug; 01-05-2022 at 12:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waug View Post
    I think you forgot something, time to remind that, for a complete picture. An equation can never be matched until every bit taken into consideration, right?

    1- Rhino can dash, that no other class can except another one called Fox, lets call these classes Dash-ers

    A. Dashing is the skill that causes multiple bugs, the way it favors only the dash-ers, the reason no dash-er complain about those BUGS. NEVER EVER. Those bugs include -

    i. Being un-targatable until the Dash-er comes back into action again.
    ii. Teleport all the way through the map (as long as the radius of a map)

    iii. Then there's this bug, that every dash-ers practice to exploit, that is teleporting back from obstacles, back from tree in forest or back from wall in CTF. When you dash back from obstacle, it makes you invisible and penetrate through the obstacle while dashing until you reach the destination.
    Tell me this is not intentional? also tell me dash-ers don't practice this in ctf and forest all the time? not to mention, due to double dash foxes are even worst at these bugs.

    B. Range is a huge factor in classic pl, and till to this date. Dash-ers breaks the classic range mechanics of pl the main reason, these two classes are the Disgrace to PL pvp. Not trying to be harsh to the players, I'm just criticizing the classes and it's system. Not even talking about the things that revolve around this either in 1v1 or in team play, the unexpected or the exploitative factors adds up to it, if I mention those points, this will get more lengthy.


    2 - Paladins has high amount of self buff and also team buff. The self buff is pretty strong and good to tank while it last, no way you compare it with anything else only except a bear, even then you're sitting on those that bear don't have even in this point of discussion. Although bear is also in the edge, the extra armor of bear buff ( 200 armor) was provided earlier to balance this class in the Myth pvp in the past, which makes it not idle for honor. The amount a bear can tank while doing damage is unbalanced.

    ______________

    Dashing should be nerfed in the first place and Fixed the bugs.
    Earlier honor fox buff was UNJUSTIFIED.
    The dash bug is not an exploit, unless other people know how to exploit it but I myself do not.

    As for the other thing you have mentioned, I’m talking about the Paladin class not the other issues you have with the other classes mentioned. Mythical PvP stats are incredibly high so any of the suggestions I made here would not effect mythic pvp one bit, here’s why:

    1.) The Holy Tempest is a debuff and no debuff works in mythical pvp considering no matter what you have over 100% hit.

    2.) Adding more Crit to Rhino, every player in mythic no matter what class has insanely high Crit numbers, so adding some Crit to a Rhinos base stats will not make a difference.

    As for the buffs, in FFA situations Rhino is still very squishy, and I know that from personal experience considering if I try to tank like a bear would I would be dead in 2 seconds even with healing debuffs.

    Now for the dashing, you can always be targeted even if you do decide to dash away. However, Ranger has way better dashing ability then the Paladin does. Rangers can get out of any situation with ease, as for Paladin’s, if the enemy has me cornered I can not escape.

    All in all, dashing is not overpowered. If it was, everyone would prefer Ranger over Archer and Paladin over Enchantress. That is not the case, so it’s not overpowered like you stated.

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    The third bug I mentioned, the one penetrate through wall / tree is practiced by players and used, doesn't matter you do or not but the class you talking about does.

    And this the only thing that related with mythical cause there's no tree / wall in honor, everything else that I said in my post is totally about honor, I wasn't talking about myth at all, so what you bring things about myth is irrelevant.

    Then if you want everything of bear, you can play bear instead even though as I said, bear "tank - damage" not balanced.

    Although I didn't used the term OP for dashing, even if something op, not everyone chose to play with that, time tested fact from the past.

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    I have a 110 rhino and I have never even used it because of how useless the class is in honor, would love a change so I can finally use my rhino


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    Despite being pretty inactive, I can confidently say that Hook is deeply invested in maining a Rhino and understands the mechanics and nuances of it better than most folks I know. That said, I do believe Rhinos are due for a buff, and the suggestions Hook outlined above are definitely viable and worth exploring.

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    I don't pvp as much as these guys, but rhino definitely needs something in honor pvp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waug View Post
    The third bug I mentioned, the one penetrate through wall / tree is practiced by players and used, doesn't matter you do or not but the class you talking about does.

    And this the only thing that related with mythical cause there's no tree / wall in honor, everything else that I said in my post is totally about honor, I wasn't talking about myth at all, so what you bring things about myth is irrelevant.

    Then if you want everything of bear, you can play bear instead even though as I said, bear "tank - damage" not balanced.

    Although I didn't used the term OP for dashing, even if something op, not everyone chose to play with that, time tested fact from the past.
    You don't play pvp anymore, Let alone have a rhino as a main character for honor. How are you going to say it's over powered, when in fact it's the total opposite? I'm confused on everything you are saying aside from your personal feelings towards rhino and fox with no actual statistics saying how they are truly broken.

    "Never mess with a man that can end you, from a different zip code."-Sniper

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFA View Post
    You don't play pvp anymore, Let alone have a rhino as a main character for honor. How are you going to say it's over powered, when in fact it's the total opposite? I'm confused on everything you are saying aside from your personal feelings towards rhino and fox with no actual statistics saying how they are truly broken.
    "No actual statistics" - Read my og post please, that's full of facts, each word is logically crafted lol, and u don't find logic there, hmm

    Sniper doesn't honor only in myth but that's ok.

    Anyway I don't have feelings for dash-ers lol I pretty much sure I'm pretty much above of those type of feelings in general.

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    I believe every class should have the capability to beat another class in 1v1 to some extent. In terms of the average player, mages beat bears in 1v1, bird beats mage in 1v1, bear beats bird in 1v1, and fox beats birds or mages in 1v1. However, even the best rhinos cannot 1v1 other classes and win reliably. The very few times they do is a result of a 5 minute long 1v1 where players are running buff and autoing because they ran out of mana.

    I believe giving the rhino more crit in its damage buff and more reliable ranged debuffs would be useful in helping them have a chance at beating at least some of the other classes in 1v1. This buff would not impact mythic gameplay since the numbers are so high. Furthermore, it would not change the hybrid bear/mage role that paladin is supposed to fulfill in team fights, but simply enhance it in a balanced fashion. The rhino will still be useful with its ability to buff the damage of the team, debuff enemies, and revive allies from long ranges. The only difference now would be that a rhino can atleast do damage and sustain itself in a 1v1 duel, if isolated in a team setting.

    Best,
    IiRose

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  17.   Click here to go to the next Dev post in this thread.   #12
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    I can totally see reducing Restore cooldown by 20% (from 5 to 4 seconds), and increasing the amount of Holy Tempest target debuff to match other class' similar debuffs.

    My only issue is with your assumptions about Crit. The screen shots are way too compressed for me to see clearly - but I guess that you're only using min STR to equip the Honor stuff and then all the rest is INT? Give me more info about the stat allocation you're using please.

    Thanks!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinco View Post
    I can totally see reducing Restore cooldown by 20% (from 5 to 4 seconds), and increasing the amount of Holy Tempest target debuff to match other class' similar debuffs.

    My only issue is with your assumptions about Crit. The screen shots are way too compressed for me to see clearly - but I guess that you're only using min STR to equip the Honor stuff and then all the rest is INT? Give me more info about the stat allocation you're using please.

    Thanks!
    Certainly!

    Yes, my honor preference is minimum STR needed and the rest int. With the vital force buff (being the crit buff) Rhino only has a low 36 crit, compared to Warrior (54 Crit), Archer (61 Crit), Ranger (60 Crit) and Enchantress (52 Crit).

    This is why I feel Rhino’s critical hit should be increased, hope this helps!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absolize View Post
    Certainly!

    Yes, my honor preference is minimum STR needed and the rest int. With the vital force buff (being the crit buff) Rhino only has a low 36 crit, compared to Warrior (54 Crit), Archer (61 Crit), Ranger (60 Crit) and Enchantress (52 Crit).

    This is why I feel Rhino’s critical hit should be increased, hope this helps!
    It does and it doesn't - since you can get natural 60+ if you put more into STR.
    So, this aspect will probably take a bit longer to assess (and might not happen since it's already an option).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinco View Post
    It does and it doesn't - since you can get natural 60+ if you put more into STR.
    So, this aspect will probably take a bit longer to assess (and might not happen since it's already an option).
    I’ve actually experimented pure str in honor before, and the issue with that is rhinos mana situation is pretty bad even if I’m 400 str rest int. So it’s really bad when I’m pure str by the time I’m finished with a single fight the mana is gone and my regen is not good either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinco View Post
    It does and it doesn't - since you can get natural 60+ if you put more into STR.
    So, this aspect will probably take a bit longer to assess (and might not happen since it's already an option).


    This is the result of pure str, it increased it by 2 putting it at 38 fully buffed which is still significantly lower than all of the competitors.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Absolize View Post
    I’ve actually experimented pure str in honor before, and the issue with that is rhinos mana situation is pretty bad even if I’m 400 str rest int. So it’s really bad when I’m pure str by the time I’m finished with a single fight the mana is gone and my regen is not good either.
    This is because rhino cannot kill due to a lack in damage so the player usually has extremely long 1v1s and runs out of mana, resulting in the opponent eventually killing him. If meditate is included, you lose valuable damage in other skills. Additionally, meditate cannot keep up with the mana consumption of rhino skills.

  24.   Click here to go to the next Dev post in this thread.   #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absolize View Post
    I’ve actually experimented pure str in honor before, and the issue with that is rhinos mana situation is pretty bad even if I’m 400 str rest int. So it’s really bad when I’m pure str by the time I’m finished with a single fight the mana is gone and my regen is not good either.
    Indeed. This illustrates the tradeoff and the potential for alternative solutions such as: increasing the mana regen that Paladins can invoke via self-buff, addressing the mana cost for Paladin skills overall, or going to the basic statistic formula for Paladin that determines mana contribution from STR. Not saying these are better than just giving more crit to Vital Force... but they'll be part of the possible solution set :-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absolize View Post
    This is the result of pure str, it increased it by 2 putting it at 38 fully buffed which is still significantly lower than all of the competitors.
    I see this:

    Name:  paladin_crit.JPG
Views: 268
Size:  59.1 KB

    We're missing something. Thoughts?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinco View Post
    I see this:

    Name:  paladin_crit.JPG
Views: 268
Size:  59.1 KB

    We're missing something. Thoughts?
    So it looks like to me you are using the elite honor set, the information stated above is actually using the 100 honor sets. 100 honor is mostly what players are in, so I was primarily focusing on those stats.

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