Devs?! Why this update?! The Swamps?!

[Furrawn]

Why? Why would you do this?!
You read all these posts on the forum. You know that a lot of level 45's cannot play well. You have heard many of us saying that having to play in the swamps would create better players. At the same time, you actually also see posts from those exact new players who won't play in the swamps because they die if they don't play well and they want the game to be easy.

Instead of making it so they have to go through the swamps to get the pink items they so prize that are often untradeable (like the hammer) which would help them learn to be better players, you just made The Swamps EASIER???????

Why?
Please tell me it wasn't just for money so lots of newbies will buy the swamps to get the cool pinks when they hear it's easier now. You could get people to buy the swamps by making it necessary to level through it. People might complain but most would stay and learn.

We buy tons of hats. So you should have more freedom to be making some decisions that are best for the game. This isn't one of them.

I know that nobody ever disagrees with the devs on the forum. Now none of you (devs) will like me. Fine. I'd rather be honest about my opinion than have you like me.

[Snakespeare]

It has turned into farmlands now.

[Aspergillus]

I totally agree. As soon as I saw the update I cringed in horror. I never post despite being a highly active, long-time player, but this warranted a response.

The swamps are the only campaign that demands player growth and team cohesion. Lowering its difficulty only caters to the players that think they should never die and go around asking people for money and free items. Catering to the leeches is not a way to create a great game - it's the way to destroy one.

[FluffNStuff]

Put a post in the updates about how I have been loving the swamps lately with one of my alts, but I will just put here that I am disappointed the swamps were 'Mynased'

[Royce]

I'll just copy and paste what I posted in the patch notes thread:

Yeah I just played some in AS and it's really sad. I (and others I believe) have been holding our breath waiting for another campaign like AS to come out. Instead, AS has been dumbed down so it's just like the majority of other campaigns which present too few challenges to a halfway skilled player. I gotta say, this is my biggest PL disappointment in a long while, not just because my favorite campaign got nerfed but because of what it seems to say about the devs' vision for the game, which is apparently just mindless hack and slash. Sorry devs, I know you guys do what you think is best for the game, but I guess maybe I just want this game to be something it was never meant to be...

And I'll add that honestly for the first time I've been kind of turned off of PL. I'm not quitting or anything, but I'm starting to wonder if PL is heading in a direction where I might not really enjoy playing it any more. It's all about collecting items, building a bank, buying and selling, etc. It's becoming a trading, show off your items game. PvP is fun but has too many issues still to be the core of the gaming experience. No one cares about playing PvE other than to level and to farm, and honestly I don't care about having a bunch of gold or collecting rare items. I like to play PvE, but most maps are barely challenging anymore. AO bosses are the weakest ever, and the one really excellent challenging campaign that kept me going has been turned into just another set of maps where you can follow your autoattack around mindlessly, with a little luck you could beat the whole campaign blindfolded. Maybe I should take a break. I don't know maybe not, this is just really disappointing...

[Snakespeare]

That's how I feel, too. I need to take a break because it's really Spacetime's concern and I shouldn't get myself into a tizzy over it. I don't care so much about having the biggest collection of pinks and the most gold. I just wanted to have fun playing out the story. But this game now caters to those who take shortcuts. It's not my call. It's up to Justg for final decision, I am guessing, and that's what he decided. So, it'll be a headspace break for me. I'll be back in about a week. Heck, I might even give the iPad the week off and read books made of paper!!!

[Furrawn]

That's how I feel, too. I need to take a break because it's really Spacetime's concern and I shouldn't get myself into a tizzy over it. I don't care so much about having the biggest collection of pinks and the most gold. I just wanted to have fun playing out the story. But this game now caters to those who take shortcuts. It's not my call. It's up to Justg for final decision, I am guessing, and that's what he decided. So, it'll be a headspace break for me. I'll be back in about a week. Heck, I might even give the iPad the week off and read books made of paper!!!

Fluff, I love the term you just used. "Mynased."
Great idea, Snakespeare. I think I'll take a headspace break in-game, too. I need a breather because I'm disappointed down to the soles of my socks (No Royce, you are not wrong. A lot of us like and want hard campaigns). I did used to wish for a slightly better loot drop rate but it's because I like to map-clear not because I wanted anything easier. I love some of the rarer pinks because they look awesome and a new weapon makes gameplay new all over again... But, I prefer to work for those great weapons. If it's mindless, then I have no desire to play. Why bother? My voodoo doll that I've had in storage for months just became worthless because a swamp pink is easy to get now. I don't mean sell cost or drop rate. I mean having fought the swamps and gotten pinks doing that made them valuable to me. Now just because new players like the swamp pinks, the devs dumbed-down the game to cater to them.

You are exactly, right, Snakespeare. It is the devs choice. I just don't get it. Any person who had a hand in creating this game must love it. It's too great of a creation to have not been created out of passion, talent, and love of gaming. How can you love this game and make a choice to dumb it down?

I think I'll go re-read my fav book by Helprin... Winter's Tale... It never fails to cheer me when I'm sad...

[mAdvillain]

You guys can qq all night long about making it easier but the fact of the matter is
makimg the swamps easier means more people will play it and buy it hecause where it stood it was way too hard for skill lvl, making it easier makes it more attractive to ppl that refuse to spen money on it BECAUSE its so hard
nothing the devs do is for u lvl45rs cuz u already spent ur money
things the do are targeting those that arent spending money

[Aspergillus]

First of all, it wasn't too hard for the skill level. I leveled my guys through there when it was the ONLY way to level them. It just requires team work and actual skill.

Second of all, the 45's are the ones spending cash on game stuff like hats so yes, we do count.

And lastly, thank you for agreeing with us that the decision was made so that the devs could get more money

[vulgarstrike]

You guys can qq all night long about making it easier but the fact of the matter is
makimg the swamps easier means more people will play it and buy it hecause where it stood it was way too hard for skill lvl, making it easier makes it more attractive to ppl that refuse to spen money on it BECAUSE its so hard
nothing the devs do is for u lvl45rs cuz u already spent ur money
things the do are targeting those that arent spending money

piss off.

ps. its daytime
pss.i guess if the devs want to sacrifice a quality base of players for funds it's really up to them, but this will come back to bite them on the ***. when the true NEW players come and see this game with with dick headed noobs they won't even play. think about long term goals spacetime and stop sucking ****.

[flaimdude]

piss off.

ps. its daytime
pss.i guess if the devs want to sacrifice a quality base of players for funds it's really up to them, but this will come back to bite them on the ***. when the true NEW players come and see this game with with dick headed noobs they won't even play. think about long term goals spacetime and stop sucking ****.

Wow, just chill out man.

I think the main problem is that there are two groups - the larger, quieter, casual player's group who enjoy the easy stuff and the smaller, louder, hardcore player's group who enjoy hard stuff. Just because most people on the forums think this is a bad idea doesn't mean the majority of the players think it is. Most of the people who post on the forums are the hardcore/dedicated people, not the casual peeps.

I think this is why we need the godmode difficulty campaigns.

I just had an idea, I'm about to go post about it.

[Furrawn]

You guys can qq all night long about making it easier but the fact of the matter is
makimg the swamps easier means more people will play it and buy it hecause where it stood it was way too hard for skill lvl, making it easier makes it more attractive to ppl that refuse to spen money on it BECAUSE its so hard
nothing the devs do is for u lvl45rs cuz u already spent ur money
things the do are targeting those that arent spending money

First of all, the swamps were not way too hard. I'm a girl and PL was my first MMO. I learned to be a good player because of the swamps. As for the fact that the devs are targeting those not spending money, well... It's the seasoned players I see buying hats and hats are pure profit for very little effort. I spent freely on hats to support the devs and the game because they are fun and I believed the hat profit would free the devs to make decisions for the betterment of the game. Instead, they are making changes that make me not want to play. They've made about $100 off me since I began playing. I suspect that they'll find out that the mynas generation players they are catering to now will not STICK. They won't be playing in two months. Maybe that's what the devs want. Maybe they are fine just having only new players that dropout in a month or two. Maybe the bottomline is their vision. They, may, however wait until too late to discover that they've alienated and lost the group that would stay with them for the longterm spending money. I spent almost 300 plat this month. How much money do you think the flashinthepan mynas gen player will spend if they have to be cajoled into just buying the swamps campaign that is ONLY 8 plat???

Not to mention, how many new players know before buying that the swamps are hard?
Is there a Mynas Generation Bulletin that let's them know what campaigns are easy and primed for leeching and mindless playing?

The other guys on the forum are right. If the devs vision is a mindless "look at my cool voodoo doll that I got playing mindless in the swamps as a level two," then the game is headed for triviality

[Kingofhurtz]

piss off.

ps. its daytime

hahahh xD
I also agree. I loved going into the swamps, waiting for a pink to drop. I fear now that it's so much easier, those sacred swamp pinks arent going to be rare anymore just like most of the Alien oasis pinks. I LOVE saving up to buy a swamp pink cuz theyre so cool looking, but now, i know im going to start seeing a lot more and i dont think theyre going to be as appetizing.The best part about it that it wasn't easy and taught people to work together. Normally there's 2-3 games going on at once in the swamps, but immediately after the update, I had to scroll down to see all of the games!

[Greeve]

I kind of agree that there needs to be some difficult zones in this game. Honestly though it should be the last zones, not a mid level campaign. AO should be way more difficult.

Along these lines, personally I think the game needs some better tiering in terms of difficulty. It is too easy the first few campaigns and does not really present much challenge up until the swamps. By that point people are already pretty set in their playstyle and its a high learning curve for them and then most of them just skip the swamps and go straight for mynas power leveling. Overall, as far as difficulty, I think the swamps and AO are very similar but only in a few places. The swamps is slightly harder and more time consuming because there arent as many easy kill mobs compared to the mummies from AO campaigns. Most mobs in the swamps require heavy dbuffing, whereas its only the guys with the spears and staffs in AO that require similar types of skills/teamwork/debuffing to take out. I think they should ramp the difficulty up throughout the campaigns and then the end game zones should obviously be the most difficult. You don't really see your first debuff worthy mob until the lost expedition and even there you still see people not doing much in terms of teamwork.

[Snakespeare]

I think I'll go re-read my fav book by Helprin... Winter's Tale... It never fails to cheer me when I'm sad...

Whitman, Leaves of Grass for me... the electronic version was badly formatted anyway.

OK, cya in a while. Hopefully the Swamps will cease being a farmland when the thrill of easy crocs wears off.

[Aspergillus]

By the way... upper levels are SUPPOSED to be harder.

just a thought...

[bmc85uk]

I haven't actually played this update yet, i've only just paid my phone bill to get my iPhone reconnected, but by the sound of things, I too will hate this.

It wasn't just the swamps, but the whole game that needed one thing nerfed - stupidly hard crits, and how often they occur, I think it's safe to say that you'd expect 2 mega crits in a row once in a blue moon, but they seem to be a frequent occurance in PLs 'Danger Zones' (the old Swamps, Skeller Krunch & AO1). I've put almost everything I think needs changing in my Overhaul thread (have thought of a few since), and until this game starts behaving like a fully fledged MMO it's never going to suck up that much of my attention.

If there's one thing that absolutely disgusts me (no offense to the developers), it's the prospect of gameplay changes being made as a result of the whining of ignorant children on the forums who dont understand RPG mechanics properly.

Much of the game is 'spoon fed' to the player, it's basically an MMO hack'n'slash RPG, enemies come in hordes and die pretty quickly, or in some cases just end up being a tedious grind (AO2 green mages who suck up more damage than tanks?!). I'm not asking for something with a hideously steep learning curve like Anarchy Online, but I think the developers need to take that plunge turning PL into something with a little more depth, sure, some people won't like it and might even leave, but I don't think any MMORPG should be this shallow; if you don't want to play games with deep character development that require strategic gameplay, you shouldn't be playing MMORPGs.

I'm sure i'll be around on the forums for a long time, but I can't remember the last time I picked up PL and thrashed out a good few hours in one session. The more time passes; the more I gradually lose faith, this game is leaning much more towards the idiot-proof instant action gameplay, and while many might like that, I don't think they're the kind of people who'll be playing PL for years to come. Personally I stick with an MMO for a good few years, but sadly i'm just too bored and far too frustrated with PL right now.

[Royce]

I just want to add that if people were complaining that the difficulty level of the swamps was out of sync with the other campaigns in the series, then the solution should have been to toughen up Skeller, AO1, and AO2. The swamps were not "too" hard. Many people leveled many characters through there when it was the only option, and many still level their characters there because it was fun to actually complete a challenging campaign and do something that you could feel a sense of accomplishment about. I realize what is "too" hard is relative, but honestly if the ongoing difficulty of PvE is going to be inline with the nerfed swamps and the mostly quite easy AO maps, then it just isn't going to be very much fun for me. The later maps of AO crank up the difficulty of killing mobs a bit, but what they lack the swamps, when they were awesome, possessed is a threat factor. Not only were those crocs tough to take down, they could also kill you. In AO, you kind of have to be an idiot to get killed by anything other than a boss. And the bosses aren't even that hard. Yes, they can kill with a lucky crit, but other than Seth and Sobek, they really don't present much challenge to any decent group.

[bmc85uk]

I'm feeling what Royce said about the game maybe just heading in a different direction to what he or I want. As far as I'm concerned, any tweaks to gameplay will only be a temporary fix until the serious underlying balance issues are addressed; right now I think the most important change needed for combat balance would be an updated health/mana system, followed by a dodge & hit revamp, and then a PvE mob archetype tweak, you'll find details of all in the Overhaul thread link in my signature.

When I think MMORPG, I think about:-

• A vast catalogue of items, carefully balanced out as the game matures.
• Taking time to level a character up, which may sometimes be frustratingly slow - I accept that as an avid MMORPG fan.
• Epic battles with enemies requiring skill & tactics.
• Fights that last longer than other games that can swing either way to loss or victory; with excitement and adrenaline in between.

I realise that a lot of the playerbase for PL are young, so I have to stress that I mean no offense when I say this, but the vibe I get is slip-shod badly thought out/tested game mechanics, idiot-proofed & spoon-fed to what the developers must have expected to be a very very stupid market.

• It doesn't require teamplay, a group of players can easily just run about like chickens without a head killing whatever they want.
• Certain stat bonuses come almost exclusively from items - leaving MASSIVE differences between well equipped and poorly equipped characters
• PvE is not challenging, the only real danger comes from excessive frequency & strength of critical hits from certain mobs. PvE is therefore a monotonous and uninteresting task.
• The ridiculously stiff health/mana system means that as the levels progress you have less HP/MP pool to play around with, high level spells are forced to require low amounts of mana, fights and damage have to be limited due to a lack of growth in total HP. The game overcopensates for this with regen; as I mentioned almost exclusively from equipment, aside from the protection that armour gives, enemy damage later in the game has to be stunted to compensate.
• The only challenge PvE presents currently is from unlucky incoming critical hits. Early in the game, damage is gradual and consistent, the higher you level - the more inconsistency arises, any character wanting to tank is currently forced to spec for high Dodge due to stunted HP, damage becomes large and infrequent to compensate.
• I've made many threads and posts, but so far have heard little encouraging feedback other than ackgnowledgment of these issues.

I am hoping and praying that balance tweaks will follow so that the PL might reflect gameplay from mainstream, successful MMORPGs. Sure I could 'go play them if i like them so much', but other MMORPGs work the way they do for a reason - their mechanics have all been tried & tested, and while they are perhaps not perfect, they have reached a satisfactory level that the players accept.

[Royce]

bmc, like many of your posts, you have made a ton of excellent points. The problem, also like many of your posts, is that you have touched on so many issues it's hard to respond or discuss the entire scope of what your post covers. I agree with you almost entirely though, and have agreed with many of those points where they were made by you or others elsewhere in the forum. I think a lot of forum folks just look at that sort of post or topic, and skip over it, not wanting to read so much. I do hope the devs are reading these sorts of posts, but more than that I wish we could get some feedback on where they plan to go with this game in terms of basic gameplay. We hear a lot about pets, auction houses, and other frills, but we don't hear much about the plans for the core mechanics of the game. Even the attribute-level-skill-conversion-thingy has been shrouded in mystery for months, and we still have no idea what it will really mean.