PL Today – In-Depth Analysis and Long Term Outlook

[Jcyee]

Thanks for posting this. Hope the devs will actually read this and consider everything u suggested/mentioned.

[WhoIsThis]

Yes it's a dodge based game now, I hate too see this game go down the gutters because I have fond memories of it. But with developer team ming so many mistakes, and the community quality declining at the rate it is, I feel I may have to make an exit.

You should never feel compelled to play. This is a game not a job. (Edit: Well unless you're a dev; then it is a job - but if you are, then you probably look forward to going to work).

[Everyone'sFavMage]

Hopefully they will consider some of your ideas, and Im not saying they are only your ideas. I can also attest that this is generally what the ENTIRE community wants...

[TANKKAAR]

WOW Bro! Just Wow! I do truly miss your posts on this forum for they are always not only a stimulating and intellectual read but offer so must insight around matters that so few understand or can articulate to such a degree.


While I fully agree with all of your talking points I will only reply to one. That dodge has reached critical mass in terms of ruining PVP at endgame and STS should adapt a more appropriate manner of defense such as what is seen in other MMOs. By simply (and I say simply even though it may require an entire game overhaul) reducing the amount of dodge (NOT REMOVING) to a more realistic amount (because there should always remain a chance for dodging or missing as in real life) and increasing the amounts of armor for example, It would better balance PVP and PVE while requiring and bringing more skill and a lot less luck to the game. IMO even making that single change would have a huge impact to all levels in terms of balance.

[Cobraguy]

I'd like to point out that everything you've posted is spot on for me as well. Even with all the new content being released recently, I'm seriously getting tired of the game again. I took a break a bit after 61 cap was released, only to come back and find the game in even more dismay than when I left it. Scatter bears, elixired images that won't backtrack a few steps to revive, thrasher only games that even people I called friends were reluctant to have me there because I wasn't potted, and the hoards of nooblet merchants spamming their ''Buying for 50% off CS'' postings.

IMO, the sewer cap was by far the best days of PL. Those were the days when 85% of players were worth a dam, not these days when only about 15% are. I've always felt strongly that elixirs have killed this game. Its their game and they can see fit how to make it, but I for one am not as happy as I once was. I know its just a game, but its sad to see something I really enjoyed going down the drain like this. I've made some good friends in the community, and every time someone leaves because they just can't take the BS anymore, it makes the game suck that much more.

The end of days in PL is near if something isn't done. That's my honest opinion.

[TANKKAAR]

Pvp from my point of view (Lvl.61 Warbird)
Vs. str bear: you have to dodge beckon/stomp (usually quite easy with 29 dodge unbuffed, and 59 buffed..)
Vs. dex bear: get close and pray you combo hits
Vs. str bird: pray your roots hit
Vs. dex bird: pray for dodge and hit %
Vs. int mage: ...just run for you life
Vs. dex mage: break shield (don't miss!) and combo

56 Warbird (if it's different)
Vs. int/str anything: don't run out of mana
Vs. mage: don't be afraid of being nuked as much, but your mana dies again

Int birds/bears and str mages aren't included due to rarity.

Str mages are far from rare :P

But yes all pvp has become is LUCK.

[LwMark]

I'd like to point out that everything you've posted is spot on for me as well. Even with all the new content being released recently, I'm seriously getting tired of the game again. I took a break a bit after 61 cap was released, only to come back and find the game in even more dismay than when I left it. Scatter bears, elixired images that won't backtrack a few steps to revive, thrasher only games that even people I called friends were reluctant to have me there because I wasn't potted, and the hoards of nooblet merchants spamming their ''Buying for 50% off CS'' postings.

IMO, the sewer cap was by far the best days of PL. Those were the days when 85% of players were worth a dam, not these days when only about 15% are. I've always felt strongly that elixirs have killed this game. Its their game and they can see fit how to make it, but I for one am not as happy as I once was. I know its just a game, but its sad to see something I really enjoyed going down the drain like this. I've made some good friends in the community, and every time someone leaves because they just can't take the BS anymore, it makes the game suck that much more.

The end of days in PL is near if something isn't done. That's my honest opinion.

L100 cap = Doomsday map

[Hadesofshadow]

Pvp from my point of view (Lvl.61 Warbird)
Vs. str bear: you have to dodge beckon/stomp (usually quite easy with 29 dodge unbuffed, and 59 buffed..)
Vs. dex bear: get close and pray you combo hits
Vs. str bird: pray your roots hit
Vs. dex bird: pray for dodge and hit %
Vs. int mage: ...just run for you life
Vs. dex mage: break shield (don't miss!) and combo

56 Warbird (if it's different)
Vs. int/str anything: don't run out of mana
Vs. mage: don't be afraid of being nuked as much, but your mana dies again

Int birds/bears and str mages aren't included due to rarity.

dex lv61 mages which have near 100% crit can

drain>fire>gf

[xcainnblecterx]

Thanks for this post i have to agree,even though im not one that has played for the whole time pl has been around and only joined april this year iam one that enjoyed learning my class and skill in fact i didnt use a singal elixer (except dailys) tell i hit 65. I enjoyed every moment of it and had fun with the community. Iam also one who enjoys the experimenting of builds for pvp and pve and i have been more criticized for it then encouraged including on forums, that is the main reason i wanted to start twinking because it did require skill as in what certain stats were better, how many skill points you would put in certain skills and what skills work best made it all the more fun to figure out a good build. The problem is some of the fellow players being negative and always having something negative to say especially in pvp i can hardly go one match without someone joining and being a negative nancy calling people noobs and putting them down. I wish i was around back when pl first started as you say the community then was welcoming and helpful of eachother, because thats how we should be and accept someone may be doing something diffrent, offer constructive feed back, point out what works Better then other things. Now all i see is these bad players that make the community seem worse then it is and turn pvp into garbage also. I cant even really twink pvp because im not a professional and therefore i guess it gives people a right to rush/team up on me and be called garbage, a dog, a noob, that im worthless. Is this really how pvp is supposed to be? Because i know of someone likes what i do or needs help im more then willing to give advice. On the pve accept i personally like sewers the best as some bosses require strategy. there is side paths to optional areas, the gear is balanced etc. Ive heard 51-56 is also the most balanced for pvp so iam making a 51 bird to see. Im really glad i took the time to read this thread as i have learned a few new things like how much the forgotten weapons have affected the twinks and im sorry to fellow forumers that do have twinks to stop complaining. I was not aware some are that passionate about pvping. I just know i want to see a better community in general, better people to run with instead of the ones hopped up on thrashers or power leveled and dont really understand their skills or the rolls their class plays, that do teach the one willing to learn about their skills and their roll in a party. I have been asked a couple times to train a some of those and iam glad there is still some willing to learn. Thanks alot for this thread i understand my fellow players a little better now

[Hadesofshadow]

I'm unbuffed, but standing there innocently and a mage (unbuffed too O.o), who is lvl55/56 with MM set does fire, and hits 702 crit (I died using bow, one-hit-KO X.X)

thats impossible btw

[gundamsone]

What a thread O_o

Gj keep it up!

[kallima]

Insightful, engaging and thoughtful as always. I have always taken the time to read and reread your posts, as the critiques and suggested solutions are constructive and if ever heeded, conducive to a win-win outcome for both STS and its player base.

Enjoy WOW and know that your posts are refreshing and a breath of fresh air. I agree with almost all your points that are relevant to my gaming experience and this is coming from a player that has always been T2. - Cheers!

[Thelastblink]

TO get this straight the forgotten items are OBVIOUSLY WITHOUT DOUBT OP and ruins ALL OF PVP, MAJORITY OF IT! And it seems people think, "if its so good just use it"..... NO! We play this game cos we have passion, it had something in it to make us play, Its very unlikely ill play this game again if all I do is 1-2 hit somebody or get 1-2 hitted.... But MOST of the people who are against the complainers are normally PVE'rs, well these forgotten items would OBVIOUSLY be like heaven for them.... So I say why dont they make them only accessible in PVE, not PVP, so both sides are HAPPY! AAAAND so people who spent a lot of time and platinum for it dont get ticked off.. Even so, I dont think it will solve the problem as most people do PVE, not PVP...D: which means the twinking items still wont sell as good and may still decrease in price..... *sigh* I agree with whoisthis 100 percent Thnx!

[Wyvern]

Best thread I have read as of today. You're just about there with everything imo. You've obviously put a pot of work into this. Excellent read!

[Yich]

Glad such an intelligent person agrees the forgotten weapons should be nerfed... If anyone says they shouldnt be nerfed ill post a link here and a link to samhayne saying they are pretty OP.

[cookiez]

Endgame PvP Situation

The PvP situation is somewhat more complicated. The reason is because we have several tiers of PvP, each with different equipment, different relative class strengths/weaknesses, and different tactics.



Endgame PvP is now a dodge-based or luck-based game. That is a far bigger criticism that I make it sound. The rewards for being skilled and experienced at playing your class and build are far smaller than ever before. For an MMO to succeed, fundamentally, you need to have a game where there’s an incentive to be skilled, where there’s an incentive to keep playing until you build that degree of skill that you need to perform.



For players that have been around for a long time, I want to draw your attention to the decreasing number of new player questions. It used to be that new players would start PvP thinking that they would “try” something new, get owned, and in a few cases, post for help on the forums. The players that were committed, that wanted to do better would try and learn and in time, make progress. The ones that were not would usually quit PvP, hide their PvP stats on their toons, and run around saying that PvP required “no skill”, when in reality, it was a whole different game from PvE and one with a learning curve that they did not have the patience to do. Those types of threads are now mostly gone. The reason why is because endgame PvP is not skill based anymore – it’s luck based. To be fair, there has always been an element of luck in PvP, but never to the extent that it is today – where it has dominated over skill and experience.



The reason for this is one stat – dodge for all 3 classes. Dodge has increased across the board. Let’s examine the effect on the core classes:



Dex birds – well let’s just say that if you are fighting another dex bird, it’s all in the dodge now. If they dodge you and you don’t, you’re dead. If it’s the opposite – you’ll own that fight. If both players dodge, expect a long match (isn’t dex bird vs dex bird supposed to be a fast fight?).



Int mage – int mages are supposed to have high dodge? Umm … what happened to the idea of glass cannon staff mages and high armor, low dodge wand mages? The cannon is there, assuming (very BIG and IMPROBABLE assumption) that they hit. But why do mages have the kind of dodge that they have? Oh, and why isn’t the staff at least 20% more potent than the wand/bracer set given the massive loss in survivability?



Str bear – strength sets, perhaps more so than anything else have broken end game PvP. It is possible to get in excess of 83% dodge with a strength set. Consider the implications. That means that 5 out of 6 shots at a fully buffed bear (or warbird) will be dodged (assuming you aren’t hit debuffed in which case it will be even smaller). Among the shots that get through … they won’t be doing that much damage with iron blood up for bears.



It ruins the possibility as well of any logical combo. Let me illustrate why. Suppose you are a bird trying to set up a cruel blast. First, your chances that your Shattering Scream will hit are 17% (1 in 6) and your chances that your Blast Shot will also hit are 17% (1 in 6). What does this mean about the chances that your combo will hit? That’s 1 in 36 or 2.78%. Actually, statistically you’re far safer in betting that both attacks will miss – 25 out of 36 times (69.44%), they will.



Pretty much with dodge so high, it becomes a game of praying that your attacks hit. This may be attractive to new players at the beginning, but for skilled players – what incentive is there to become skilled at PvP?



These high dodge sets aren’t a good idea for PvE either. It’s been noted that pure int mage and pure dex bird in the hands of skilled players work in PvE and lead to very rapid runs. With pure str bear … it doesn’t work; you need hit or your beckons won’t hit. Bears are more or less forced to use dex as a secondary stat by default (or perhaps int as it also provides some hit).



The other is that there are now 7 points in buffs. Consider the implications – suppose you are an int mage. Your blessings now gives you +70% crit, +35 damage when fully buffed and a ton of armor, plus a mana shield. Admittedly, the +70% crit is now of questionable value since 100% is the crit cap, but try fighting a fully buffed player unbuffed. Similar things could be said about birds. (Str sets are different because the dodge is so high that luck is predominant in determining outcomes here, which is again problematic). More so than ever before, if you are buffed and fighting unbuffed, skill doesn’t matter – you’ll own.



This is also a problem in PvE, although not to the same extent. Assuming you have no elixirs – you can safely get in front with buffs on, but the minute you have buffs down, you’re target practice. With elixirs, buffed, things just melt away in front of you, while unbuffed … it’s somewhat slower but still quite rapid.



Regardless, PvP at the endgame is in need of a serious rework in order for skill to become the deciding factor again.

Totally agree. I would love to cap my 70 bear, but I don't have $200 to spend and I also don't have 200 hours to waste either. I really think it's messed up...

[YYZ????]

Great Post! It rings true on many if not all points.

I have been actively playing 1 month shy of 2 years, and have never left for more than a few days.


The skill decline to me is saddest evolution of the game. Elixir's hide poor skill, and delay skill attainment. If you just nuke everything and do not have to worry about dying, what is there to learn?


The most skilled teams to me were when Shadow Caves came out and we were mostly all lvl 50, non-elixired. You could join a PUG and if the right classes were in the group you had a chance. When the Shadow Cave achievement came out, People were going back there at lvl 65 and having problems! Overall lack of teamwork and skill have greatly declined.


Can skill be brought back into the game? Hard to tell with elixirs so prevalent, but with the right game mechanics I think it can. Think of Fragx. You needed a bird to hit blast to break his armor. What if a new boss needed to be debuffed by a mage, blasted by a bird, and taunted by a bear to be beaten. This would bring together all classes and believe me, If the boss brought along decent drops the players would figure it out asap!

[Roberto077]

I say elixirs are for people who dont know how to play the game right. Also the dodge based game is so lame.

[Register]

Wow Who! Your extremely long posts are pretty awesome
I agree with everything (That I can remember) you said. You've outdone yourself, again.

[XghostzX]

Who, you are an idol and a leader. Surely if the devs don't look into this, I won't know what else to do.

I'm glad the community has someone like. I would type more, but i read everything over mobile.

You're simply a saint. Thank you.