The forgotten difference

[Yich]

Your welcome for the pics, noob.

You're*. That's GG. Oh, and thanks.

[Mothwing]

I merely thought that visual assistance was needed for any high level regular to see how much of a stat difference the forgotten bows actually are in low level.

Please stop acting like the end-gamers don't know anything about twinking.

[Cahaun]

This topic used to be constructive...

Aaaaaaaaaand it's gone


IB4L

[McBain]

Some would say that another forgotten weapon thread would be kicking a dead horse.

This is where I stopped reading.

[Yich]

This topic used to be constructive...

Aaaaaaaaaand it's gone


IB4L

A moderator already posted, this obviously isnt a spam thread. Go troll elsewhere please. Do me a favor and actually read the next thread you go posting on, would ya?

[Lowlyspy]

I would say they are a bit OP in the low level ranges, my only thing is that there is a way to combat them. Kiting with an xbow, which you said yourself is an effective tactic, is a viable option and xbows at that level range aren't ridiculously expensive (at least none that i've seen, i could be wrong). If there was absolutely no way to combat the forgotten weps (meaning that they had range as well as damage) then i would agree with you, but why should the weps be nerfed even though there is a feasible option against them?

EDIT:

This topic used to be constructive...

Aaaaaaaaaand it's gone


IB4L

In the format it was posted, it is constructive. I for one would like to discuss this and right now the only reason this thread could be locked is by people doing what you did above Rasa. No trolling por favor, i'd like a nice, friendly discussion.

[Yich]

I would say they are a bit OP in the low level ranges, my only thing is that there is a way to combat them. Kiting with an xbow, which you said yourself is an effective tactic, is a viable option and xbows at that level range aren't ridiculously expensive (at least none that i've seen, i could be wrong). If there was absolutely no way to combat the forgotten weps (meaning that they had range as well as damage) then i would agree with you, but why should the weps be nerfed even though there is a feasible option against them?

EDIT:
In the format it was posted, it is constructive. I for one would like to discuss this and right now the only reason this thread could be locked is by people doing what you did above Rasa. No trolling por favor, i'd like a nice, friendly discussion.

I added a little section about X bows being a viable solution. If 2 smart pvpers face off, they will eventually be forced to use the forgotten bow. (unless they agree to not use it, and this doesnt happen often)

[Bous]

He fights for it because 15-17 pvp is what he loves to do. Its what alot of people love to do. But ever since the introduction of the f bows, 15-17 has been super unbalanced/ unplayable(mages gone extinct). I think the f bows should be a pve item only or lowered in damage significantly. Will 10-17 ever be rebalanced?

[Bous]

Aaaaaaand ill fight for it till a mod sais its permanent

[Hadesofshadow]

I've been twinking since it was invented in pocket legends

I have no problems

[Kraze]

Interesting no response to my "host a non forgotten tourney" post. Seems like a nice short term answer

[Lowlyspy]

I added a little section about X bows being a viable solution. If 2 smart pvpers face off, they will eventually be forced to use the forgotten bow. (unless they agree to not use it, and this doesnt happen often)

How many people would you say are smart pvpers in that level range compared to how many play in that level range though? :/

[Cahaun]

I never meant to troll anything so I apologise if I was rude, but the one thing we need to all do is to stop fighting over these Forgotten stuff.

Let's all reset here:


Yes it is OP and I do know the stat differences as I have lots of them over levels 10-20 and a few other levels. The only thing I used them for is PvE as I was never a PvP person though. The main advantage is the high base damage and weakness is lower range.

[Yich]

I've been twinking since it was invented in pocket legends

I have no problems

Guy above me, i am an honorary mod declared so by me and i say stfu and deal

Thank you for your words of wisdom. Now go away.

[Yich]

I never meant to troll anything so I apologise if I was rude, but the one thing we need to all do is to stop fighting over these Forgotten stuff.

Let's all reset here:


Yes it is OP and I do know the stat differences as I have lots of them over levels 10-20 and a few other levels. The only thing I used them for is PvE as I was never a PvP person though. The main advantage is the high base damage and weakness is lower range.

The problem here is: The fighting isn't because anyone disagrees with my post. Any arguement here is based around the logic of "well they didnt nerf it before when people complained about it then, so quit complaining." The entire post makes that arguement invalid, as they did fix the bows at some levels, and it was never OP at others. If anyone actually has a legitimate arguement as to why these bows shouldnt be nerfed or removed completely from low level, Id love to hear it. Otherwise, just go somewhere else..

[GoodSyntax]

Yich,

Well written and I actually do appreciate the stat information and pics. People saying that they are OP'd is not the same as showing just how OP'd they are.

With that said, there is a way to combat them, unfortunately, like a game of tic-tac-toe, good tactics usually results in a stalemate.

I completely agree that the closer to endgame you get, the more balanced the F-Bows become. In all honesty, I think that the increase in DEX requirement actually hurts more the closer to endgame that you get. Because of the high base state requirements, you can't dual spec with top end STR armor/helm and use the bow. Lower level PVP just magnifies the inability to dual spec with the bow.

Prior to the base spec reset, I had a dual-spec bear that would dominate because I had top-of-the line STR armor and an F-Bow. Now, I have to use a bow several levels lower, which has leveled the playing field (a bit).

My take is that at this point, the bow (from a damage and DPS perspective) is still overpowered, but because of the high DEX requirement, you can no longer dual-spec bears and use both STR armor and F-bows that are appropriate for your level. As strange as it sounds, low level Bow-Bears have become a bit squishy - not as bad as nuke mages, but not significantly better either. It's the age old trade-off between damage vs. survivability.

Honestly, if you take away the hit% debuff, especially for low levels, I think that the F-Bow is only a bit OP'd. Without the debuff, I would probably still prefer the SBL because of the Freeze proc so you can combo with Stomp (which at low levels is devastating!).

Just my two cents...

[Megabird56]

If there are a bunch of people that agree with you then it shouldn't be hard to find people that will agree not to use forgotten bows with you in order to maintain what you deem is the integrity of pvp.

If people don't agree to not use these bows, they must like them and enjoy using them. You don't have to play with those people.

Yeah, it's easier for noobs to kill you now so it's not as great to farm less experienced players. Is that the problem?

Otherwise, if you don't like, don't use.

[Ephesius]

There has been a lot of arguing about forgotten weapons in the past, this is true. Some would say that another forgotten weapon thread would be kicking a dead horse. I disagree, and I have something new to bring to the table.

Exhibit A
Attachment 17470

Here we have a picture of the difference between an Elite blaster set and a forgotten bow, which is about to be equipped. The forgotten bow gives slightly more DPS and hit %, which points in its favor, but again, slightly. It lowers armor, dodge, health regen, and mana pool. The proc lowers hit % by 30 %, which really isn't much considering the average endgamer has oober high hit % anyway.

Next, Exhibit B

Attachment 17471

This is a level 51 with what I would consider "top tier" gear. While this is not as accurate due to the fact that it would be an impossible dual spec, it still proves my final point in a way. First, the stats are not that much higher than the old "top tier" gear. If you think they are, you might not want to see the next screenshots to come.

Exhibit C

Attachment 17472

This is the stat difference from a level 17 pink talon and 15 pink (platinum purchased) wing. This was a very common combination among low level bears in the past, not so much now. I think the dps being multiplied by itself speaks for itself, but just in case, I'll help it. If you haven't already noticed, DPS in low level is actually DPS. The tiny amount of armor means that the DPS stat will be much more accurate on the battlefield. Just to clarify, this is 2x the DPS from the previous common weapon.

Exhibit D

Attachment 17473

The previous "special" weapon. The Snowball Launcher (SBL), is very much overpowered in low level PvP. This was also a commonly used weapon before the forgotten bows, the 15 purple SBL. It ranged from 350-500k. The proc freezes your opponent if you're lucky, giving you the chance to stomp them for a COMBO, dealing extra damage and looking pretty sweet. The forgotten proc debuffs hit percentage down 30%, which is a big deal in low level, where every hit counts (especially when they deal 200+ damage when buffed). Notice that the DPS goes up 62 points and the proc is debatably stronger. No stats go down in this trade for weapons, so long as you're trading for the forgotten bow.


Before the forgotten update, most (if not all) low level bears were pure spec dexterity. At 51-56 PvP, bears dual spec-ed dexterity and strength. At endgame, anything was possible, but usually the only pure dexterity spec would be a bird.

The point (finally): 70-71 PvP was slightly affected by this update because the weapons stats just weren't up to par to compete with the endgame weapons in the first place. It's just not worth giving up the set bonus and 70 crafted weapons/shields (or 71 elite blaster in this case). 51-56 PvP was affected because the stats on the forgotten weapons slightly trump the stats on the 51-56 weapons, but when the base stat requirement was raised, PvP mostly returned to normal, as few gave up their dual spec to equip a forgotten bow. Lastly, we have 10-17 PvP, where the stat difference is pretty similar, and obviously overpowered. The damage doubles that of the previously used weapons, and even goes as far as to add to other stats like dodge and hit % (when paired with the SBL). Since most low level bears were pure spec anyway, the base dexterity requirement being raised did not quite fix this weapons dominance over all others. I could write a book on how OP these bows made birds, but I don't know the first thing about birds.

I'm not quite finished though, here we have Exhibit E

Attachment 17473

For all of you darlings who want to wag your finger and say "Oh but the SBL was OP before, and no one complained then ", I show you this. A considerable amount more DPS, sure, but take a closer look. -11 Hit %, and -9 Armor. That's a huge disadvantage. HUGE. Now, you're probably saying "Oh but the SBL freezes, silly ". I'd just like to give a free tip to those newcomers. Mages can heal out of the freeze proc. Birds can use shatter to free themselves. Bears can use stomp to free themselves, and if timed right, they can stomp a bear away, effectively juking away from the stomp while avoiding a deadly shatter combo. The SBL was beatable, shame on any who say otherwise.

Here are the last two, they go hand in hand. Exhibit F and G

Attachment 17474

Me using my X-bow to kite a forgotten bow. In this situation, it is either a stalemate (because my opponent will be smart enough to run back and take cover from my long range weapon), or I am at the advantage (because my opponent will not be smart enough to do that, and I will hit them with a dozen arrows before they get within range).

Attachment 17475

Me using my forgotten bow, hiding behind a wall. In this situation, it is either a stalemate (because my opponent won't walk around the wall to their guaranteed death), or I have the advantage (because my opponent is dumb enough to walk around the wall to his/her guaranteed death).


I just had to add these last two to help people visually grasp the concept that kiting doesn't always work. When the first stalemate occurs, the forgotten user must run to cover, and if they're smart, they will see the X-bow from far away and just camp behind a wall. When they take cover or sit behind said wall, the second stalemate occurs. At this point, the two must either agree to use something other than forgotten bows, or the X-bow user must switch to the forgotten bow. When either player chooses to no cooperate, it all boils down to the forgotten weapons. Since most here know that low level isn't exactly "full" of cooperative players, you can make an educated guess that they won't be calling, they will be using the OP forgotten bow in the case of a stalemate. With such an overpowered weapon, the use of it is inevitable, if someone wishes to succeed. It's not just the cheap common weapon here guys, its the only option.

Thanks for reading. (If you didn't read it all, save your flames for another time)

There has been a lot of arguing about forgotten weapons in the past, this is true. Some would say that another forgotten weapon thread would be kicking a dead horse. I disagree, and I have something new to bring to the table.

Exhibit A
Attachment 17470

Here we have a picture of the difference between an Elite blaster set and a forgotten bow, which is about to be equipped. The forgotten bow gives slightly more DPS and hit %, which points in its favor, but again, slightly. It lowers armor, dodge, health regen, and mana pool. The proc lowers hit % by 30 %, which really isn't much considering the average endgamer has oober high hit % anyway.

Next, Exhibit B

Attachment 17471

This is a level 51 with what I would consider "top tier" gear. While this is not as accurate due to the fact that it would be an impossible dual spec, it still proves my final point in a way. First, the stats are not that much higher than the old "top tier" gear. If you think they are, you might not want to see the next screenshots to come.

Exhibit C

Attachment 17472

This is the stat difference from a level 17 pink talon and 15 pink (platinum purchased) wing. This was a very common combination among low level bears in the past, not so much now. I think the dps being multiplied by itself speaks for itself, but just in case, I'll help it. If you haven't already noticed, DPS in low level is actually DPS. The tiny amount of armor means that the DPS stat will be much more accurate on the battlefield. Just to clarify, this is 2x the DPS from the previous common weapon.

Exhibit D

Attachment 17473

The previous "special" weapon. The Snowball Launcher (SBL), is very much overpowered in low level PvP. This was also a commonly used weapon before the forgotten bows, the 15 purple SBL. It ranged from 350-500k. The proc freezes your opponent if you're lucky, giving you the chance to stomp them for a COMBO, dealing extra damage and looking pretty sweet. The forgotten proc debuffs hit percentage down 30%, which is a big deal in low level, where every hit counts (especially when they deal 200+ damage when buffed). Notice that the DPS goes up 62 points and the proc is debatably stronger. No stats go down in this trade for weapons, so long as you're trading for the forgotten bow.


Before the forgotten update, most (if not all) low level bears were pure spec dexterity. At 51-56 PvP, bears dual spec-ed dexterity and strength. At endgame, anything was possible, but usually the only pure dexterity spec would be a bird.

The point (finally): 70-71 PvP was slightly affected by this update because the weapons stats just weren't up to par to compete with the endgame weapons in the first place. It's just not worth giving up the set bonus and 70 crafted weapons/shields (or 71 elite blaster in this case). 51-56 PvP was affected because the stats on the forgotten weapons slightly trump the stats on the 51-56 weapons, but when the base stat requirement was raised, PvP mostly returned to normal, as few gave up their dual spec to equip a forgotten bow. Lastly, we have 10-17 PvP, where the stat difference is pretty similar, and obviously overpowered. The damage doubles that of the previously used weapons, and even goes as far as to add to other stats like dodge and hit % (when paired with the SBL). Since most low level bears were pure spec anyway, the base dexterity requirement being raised did not quite fix this weapons dominance over all others. I could write a book on how OP these bows made birds, but I don't know the first thing about birds.

I'm not quite finished though, here we have Exhibit E

Attachment 17473

For all of you darlings who want to wag your finger and say "Oh but the SBL was OP before, and no one complained then ", I show you this. A considerable amount more DPS, sure, but take a closer look. -11 Hit %, and -9 Armor. That's a huge disadvantage. HUGE. Now, you're probably saying "Oh but the SBL freezes, silly ". I'd just like to give a free tip to those newcomers. Mages can heal out of the freeze proc. Birds can use shatter to free themselves. Bears can use stomp to free themselves, and if timed right, they can stomp a bear away, effectively juking away from the stomp while avoiding a deadly shatter combo. The SBL was beatable, shame on any who say otherwise.

Here are the last two, they go hand in hand. Exhibit F and G

Attachment 17474

Me using my X-bow to kite a forgotten bow. In this situation, it is either a stalemate (because my opponent will be smart enough to run back and take cover from my long range weapon), or I am at the advantage (because my opponent will not be smart enough to do that, and I will hit them with a dozen arrows before they get within range).

Attachment 17475

Me using my forgotten bow, hiding behind a wall. In this situation, it is either a stalemate (because my opponent won't walk around the wall to their guaranteed death), or I have the advantage (because my opponent is dumb enough to walk around the wall to his/her guaranteed death).


I just had to add these last two to help people visually grasp the concept that kiting doesn't always work. When the first stalemate occurs, the forgotten user must run to cover, and if they're smart, they will see the X-bow from far away and just camp behind a wall. When they take cover or sit behind said wall, the second stalemate occurs. At this point, the two must either agree to use something other than forgotten bows, or the X-bow user must switch to the forgotten bow. When either player chooses to no cooperate, it all boils down to the forgotten weapons. Since most here know that low level isn't exactly "full" of cooperative players, you can make an educated guess that they won't be calling, they will be using the OP forgotten bow in the case of a stalemate. With such an overpowered weapon, the use of it is inevitable, if someone wishes to succeed. It's not just the cheap common weapon here guys, its the only option.

Thanks for reading. (If you didn't read it all, save your flames for another time)

My 67 mage wearing 65 gear was winning against level 70 birds. You Were one of them

[Brave Sir Robin]

This is very informative.

One question: is elite blaster range-wise a recurve or an x-bow? Does it have a range advantage compared to forgotten (forgotten is a recurve)? Judging by the speed it seems it's a recurve.

And a comment. In endgame, when you compare forgotten pink vs. blaster, you forget to mention how blaster offers a lot more crit, which further proves your point. However, compare the purple forgotten vs. blaster too!! Look at this:

Irrevocably Forgotten Bow: 215-270 Damage, 0.9 Speed, 32 Dex, 1% Hit, 10% Crit, 4 H/S, 4 M/S, 14 Armor
Forever Forgotten Bow: 219-274 Damage, 0.9 Speed, 33 Dex, 12% Hit, 7% Crit, 4 H/S, 5 M/S, 10 Armor
Elite Sea Blaster: 211-251 Damage, 0.9 Speed, 33 Dex, 9% Hit, 10% Crit, 5 H/S, 4 M/S, 14 Armor, 4% Dodge

Out of those three, I would go for the purple forgotten for PvE. Equal crit with blaster and superior damage, as you stated Hit % is high enough for birds in endgame anyway. Not to mention, unbeatable price and no boot proc!!

Back to the point, I have not decided if Forgotten was a good or a bad thing. I don't PvP and I liked that bow prices dropped to be honest. Certainly it messed up the PvP balance, but I saw that in Crim's official tournament forgotten were not allowed anyway.

Also, I liked your analysis with the stalemate Camping ftw lol. It reminds me of the camper-strike glory days

Anyway, happy to take part in a discussion with facts and proper analysis.

[Drizzid]

If only you were this passionate about something that actually mattered, you might accomplish something worthwhile.

I'm seriously dumbfounded at the 'effort' you've put into this. I don't care either way, but hopefully the devs throw a bone so another 'I quit' thread doesn't pop up.