The forgotten difference

[Mothwing]

This is very informative.

One question: is elite blaster range-wise a recurve or an x-bow? Does it have a range advantage compared to forgotten (forgotten is a recurve)? Judging by the speed it seems it's a recurve.

And a comment. In endgame, when you compare forgotten pink vs. blaster, you forget to mention how blaster offers a lot more crit, which further proves your point. However, compare the purple forgotten vs. blaster too!! Look at this:

Irrevocably Forgotten Bow: 215-270 Damage, 0.9 Speed, 32 Dex, 1% Hit, 10% Crit, 4 H/S, 4 M/S, 14 Armor
Forever Forgotten Bow: 219-274 Damage, 0.9 Speed, 33 Dex, 12% Hit, 7% Crit, 4 H/S, 5 M/S, 10 Armor
Elite Sea Blaster: 211-251 Damage, 0.9 Speed, 33 Dex, 9% Hit, 10% Crit, 5 H/S, 4 M/S, 14 Armor, 4% Dodge

Out of those three, I would go for the purple forgotten for PvE. Equal crit with blaster and superior damage, as you stated Hit % is high enough for birds in endgame anyway. Not to mention, unbeatable price and no boot proc!!

Back to the point, I have not decided if Forgotten was a good or a bad thing. I don't PvP and I liked that bow prices dropped to be honest. Certainly it messed up the PvP balance, but I saw that in Crim's official tournament forgotten were not allowed anyway.

Also, I liked your analysis with the stalemate Camping ftw lol. It reminds me of the camper-strike glory days

Anyway, happy to take part in a discussion with facts and proper analysis.

Elite Sea Blaster: More crit, armor, and dodge. Oh...and freaking cannonball proc.

[Brave Sir Robin]

Elite Sea Blaster: More crit, armor, and dodge. Oh...and freaking cannonball proc.

Not more crit and arm compared to the purple one.
Also, cannonball proc = boot proc

[Mothwing]

Not more crit and arm compared to the purple one.
Also, cannonball proc = boot proc

But were talking about PVP, no?

[Yich]

Yich,

Well written and I actually do appreciate the stat information and pics. People saying that they are OP'd is not the same as showing just how OP'd they are.

With that said, there is a way to combat them, unfortunately, like a game of tic-tac-toe, good tactics usually results in a stalemate.

I completely agree that the closer to endgame you get, the more balanced the F-Bows become. In all honesty, I think that the increase in DEX requirement actually hurts more the closer to endgame that you get. Because of the high base state requirements, you can't dual spec with top end STR armor/helm and use the bow. Lower level PVP just magnifies the inability to dual spec with the bow.

Prior to the base spec reset, I had a dual-spec bear that would dominate because I had top-of-the line STR armor and an F-Bow. Now, I have to use a bow several levels lower, which has leveled the playing field (a bit).

My take is that at this point, the bow (from a damage and DPS perspective) is still overpowered, but because of the high DEX requirement, you can no longer dual-spec bears and use both STR armor and F-bows that are appropriate for your level. As strange as it sounds, low level Bow-Bears have become a bit squishy - not as bad as nuke mages, but not significantly better either. It's the age old trade-off between damage vs. survivability.

Honestly, if you take away the hit% debuff, especially for low levels, I think that the F-Bow is only a bit OP'd. Without the debuff, I would probably still prefer the SBL because of the Freeze proc so you can combo with Stomp (which at low levels is devastating!).

Just my two cents...

This is true for the first time the F bows were added. Some time ago, it was oober common for bears at low level to be pure dex spec. When the low dex requirement was on the f bows, people went a tiny dex to use the bows, then put the rest into str. When that was fixed, people went back into pure dex, but now with a new super weapon that doubles their old DPS. I wouldnt call the problem solved here because the F bow still overpowers all.

To some others- we all know low level has a lot of inexperienced players. It's fact. Saying "now you're mad because you get beat" does not mean anything to me. As silly as the stats are on this bow, I still know how to beat it easily. I also have more pink 17 f bows than you can count on 8 hands... I simply think that these bows are too strong, and that if their stats were set equal with the SBL and talon, PvP at low level would be fun and diverse once more. If anyone has a solid arguement against this, please post it. Ill I see is people being rude or agreeing.

Edit: Id also like to say that Ive seen 2 devs post in the chat box that Techno Email will have something to say about the f bows. If her comment saying they might make armor and helms to balance it out is what they meant, Im disappointed. If Techno continues on with this trend, here is a list of different gear and their difficulty to obtain:
Random whites, Oranges, greens and purples. (next to useless in PvP, easy to get)
Platinum purchased gear (easy to get if you have plat, some is used in PvP)
Low tier pinks and purps (df leathers, doom weaps)
Discontinued items (like WF items, often used but can be costly)
Low level recipe armors (very very hard to farm, high tier gear in PvP)
Techno Emails super gear (Only F bow out so far, more to come. Easy to farm, only gear used in PvP)

Notice the trend up to low level recipes, the better the stats, the harder they were to obtain. Assuming Techno Email is creating a new tier, the trend will end at recipes. If anyone thought the WF items were OP and hard to obtain, imagine the new Techno Tier of discontinued items. Anyone without them will be at 1/2 the DPS already!

[Brave Sir Robin]

But were talking about PVP, no?

I think we discuss Forgotten bows in general since it's under the General Discussion area. Not sure tbh.

[wvhills]

before the forgotten bows weren't most low level twinks (10-30) bears? I assumed most were bears because with rage they were OP. Seems to me like bows just allow other low level classes to go dex and compete better with the bears.

[Yich]

before the forgotten bows weren't most low level twinks (10-30) bears? I assumed most were bears because with rage they were OP. Seems to me like bows just allow other low level classes to go dex and compete better with the bears.

I used a support mage in PvP in the pre forgotten era. I loved it. Bears were easier to use, but I think birds and mages had more potential. Plenty of birds showed up, some did good (vv/jake and lost was ok). Bears were definitely an easier class, but now birds are pretty OP with dodge and the ability to nuke hard.

[GoodSyntax]

I have to agree with you Yich, I am not a fan of discontinued items being so OP'd that they would be considered the "minimum required gear." This concept alienates new players, because if you missed the event, you are either going to get kill farmed by someone with the gear, or you shell out hundreds of thousands, if not millions, for gear that puts you on a level playing field.

It's certainly one thing if these discontinued items provide a slight advantage (like Founders, and other vanities with stats), but as you showcased, 2X DPS is, in a word, unfair. Yes, I too am hoarding a bunch of pink and purple F-Bows from all levels, but it is more for defense than for merching. If I want to start a new toon for lvl 17 PVP my KDR would be 0.002 if I didn't have a representative equip. These days, low level PVP is more about gear than tactics (to some extent) - which is unfortunate, because casual players simply don't have millions available to purchase elite gear. Some just want to play when they have some free time - and those are the ones who get farmed, and ultimately will quit PVP entirely.

Personally, I would favor the release of a new low level map that drops strong gear that offsets the damage of the bows. Also, introducing a crafting component would be nice. The point is that the only way to reset low level PVP is to make armor that can offset the damage widely available, and provide other weapons besides bows. I'm not talking about just a WF, or Halloween event that becomes discontinued after a couple of weeks, but a main-spine map that drops good armors and other weapons - like talons, wands, staffs, swords. Unfortunately, this is a dangerous proposition, because it makes gear from FE, SSC and other maps obsolete, but I don't see any recourse other than nerfing - which I am not a fan of. Perhaps new armor with high dodge - but again, that makes luck the biggest factor and still minimizes tactics. I wish I could find an obvious solution (other than nerfing) that would fix everything, but anything that combats the F-Bows unbalances PVP even further - the only real differentiation is that the gear has to be available to all (either through grinding, farming or purchasing), unlike these discontinued bows.

Personally, it's disappointing that everyone is specing as Dex Bears, Dexchantresses and Dex Birds. Every build has to have strengths and weaknesses. Without weaknesses, there is no variety in the game.

[Yich]

I have to agree with you Yich, I am not a fan of discontinued items being so OP'd that they would be considered the "minimum required gear." This concept alienates new players, because if you missed the event, you are either going to get kill farmed by someone with the gear, or you shell out hundreds of thousands, if not millions, for gear that puts you on a level playing field.

It's certainly one thing if these discontinued items provide a slight advantage (like Founders, and other vanities with stats), but as you showcased, 2X DPS is, in a word, unfair. Yes, I too am hoarding a bunch of pink and purple F-Bows from all levels, but it is more for defense than for merching. If I want to start a new toon for lvl 17 PVP my KDR would be 0.002 if I didn't have a representative equip. These days, low level PVP is more about gear than tactics (to some extent) - which is unfortunate, because casual players simply don't have millions available to purchase elite gear. Some just want to play when they have some free time - and those are the ones who get farmed, and ultimately will quit PVP entirely.

Personally, I would favor the release of a new low level map that drops strong gear that offsets the damage of the bows. Also, introducing a crafting component would be nice. The point is that the only way to reset low level PVP is to make armor that can offset the damage widely available, and provide other weapons besides bows. I'm not talking about just a WF, or Halloween event that becomes discontinued after a couple of weeks, but a main-spine map that drops good armors and other weapons - like talons, wands, staffs, swords. Unfortunately, this is a dangerous proposition, because it makes gear from FE, SSC and other maps obsolete, but I don't see any recourse other than nerfing - which I am not a fan of. Perhaps new armor with high dodge - but again, that makes luck the biggest factor and still minimizes tactics. I wish I could find an obvious solution (other than nerfing) that would fix everything, but anything that combats the F-Bows unbalances PVP even further - the only real differentiation is that the gear has to be available to all (either through grinding, farming or purchasing), unlike these discontinued bows.

Personally, it's disappointing that everyone is specing as Dex Bears, Dexchantresses and Dex Birds. Every build has to have strengths and weaknesses. Without weaknesses, there is no variety in the game.

This seems like the recognition of a problem but refusal to accept the correct solution. When I say nerf, regardless of what other people mean, I mean they should be balanced. At 2x the damage of others, being balanced would mean they need to be nerfed. I guess I'll start saying they need balance. I would have been very much up for the forgotten update had the stats been balanced with other weapons at their level. I thought it was some kind of joke when people argued that they shouldn't be balanced, but is watevs.

[Thelastblink]

I really hope the devs just give us their decision........ I've been waiting for more than a month and they havent even said if they will nerf or wont nerf..... If your not gonna nerf and its final.... TELL US!
If you are gonna nerf TELL US! Just tell us the truth, its not like we are gonna kill you if you say no nerfing....

[Reunegade]

Guys, just wait. Techno already said that they were going to release new items to balance stuff out. I can't stand it either, but what use is there in complaining? Just wait until they release the new items.

And by the way, you should be more specific. Only the forgotten bows should be nerfed.






Reun

[Yich]

Guys, just wait. Techno already said that they were going to release new items to balance stuff out. I can't stand it either, but what use is there in complaining? Just wait until they release the new items.

And by the way, you should be more specific. Only the forgotten bows should be nerfed.






Reun

The other F weapons have pretty high damage, but I'll look closer to find out for sure. Also, if Techno Email continues with her current trend, adding new armor and helms won't be a very good solution, as she will discontinue them too...

[Reunegade]

The other F weapons have pretty high damage, but I'll look closer to find out for sure. Also, if Techno Email continues with her current trend, adding new armor and helms won't be a very good solution, as she will discontinue them too...

But the thing with the other forgotten items are that not alot of ppl use the other forgotten items. And if Techno does add helms and armors, then there will be even more chaos in the forums -_- Let's just cross our fingers and hope that they'll just make new weapons.

[Yich]

But the thing with the other forgotten items are that not alot of ppl use the other forgotten items. And if Techno does add helms and armors, then there will be even more chaos in the forums -_- Let's just cross our fingers and hope that they'll just make new weapons.

Techno Email making new easy to obtain weapons would still undermine the previous tier, since in the past, the more effective an item was, the harder it was to obtain. I see no reason for Techno to change this, but I guess she writes the code.

[Reunegade]

Who ever said Techno was going to make easy-to-obtain weapons? But of course, she never said she was going to make hard-to-obtain weapons O.o

[MightyMicah]

The horse is only dead for those who want it dead...

Yich, this is a great thread. It's about time you stopped spamming everywhere and brought the hardcore proof and logic. Well done dude. I couldn't agree more. Everyone who was anyone in this game agrees with us. I just wish those guys would hop on the forums. The devs do what they think is best. From what they've seen, most people like the new bows. They've seen wrong.

~MM

[Yich]

The horse is only dead for those who want it dead...

Yich, this is a great thread. It's about time you stopped spamming everywhere and brought the hardcore proof and logic. Well done dude. I couldn't agree more. Everyone who was anyone in this game agrees with us. I just wish those guys would hop on the forums. The devs do what they think is best. From what they've seen, most people like the new bows. They've seen wrong.

~MM

Thanks for your support. People PM me in game saying they agree with my thread.. Only making me question as to why they didn't post on it... Oh well. To each their own..

[Like-A-Boss]

Alright guys,
Think about.
Devs are people who program this game on various platforms ranging from IOS to Droid (forgot what Android platform was called)
to flash for PC? So they probably can do math and can tell what stats the bows are...

I'm pretty sure they have a solution to this problem. They just don't want to release it a month after F Bows...
What's the point of creating F bows? - Attract more people to play since school starting in Sept. takes alot of players away...

To remove/nerd F bows will be real nice for low lv pvp, yes, but...
Devs prob want to make their hard work count for something and last a while...
Prob halloween or xmas events will overpower bows, although that would be scary.. since bows are high hitting enough...
Prob a nerf or better proc for new items that will make bows more balanced...

And to all those people who say ppl this is down right logic..
80% of you didn't read the post word to word..

if you're aoa, then I would understand that you actually care..
the rest are just ranters saying F bows are OP..

To me, the update doesn't make a dif cuz I own anyways and that I invested mils into sbl and tinsel and pepper which I use
quite often against bow nubs (nubs who have crap armor but use bows) for fun and pro twinks who like to use talons

The major pro point of bows is that it gives more people a chance at the "pros" even though its almost total BS cuz all you do is cross your fingers (figuratively) and spam skills

I must say, pvp matches ( at least in my data ) trended upward,

Before: Not many rushers, but mostly rich people with top gear ( I admit I was close to one of these guys)
After: More non-pro players who rush, but also more people who pvp for fun

Before: 200k for duck, 200k for armor and 55 plat (at the least) for helm, shield, ring, face and talon; mostly top-tier gear lv 10-14
3m for SBL, 900k-1.4m for armor and 55 plat(at the least) for helm, shield, ring, face and talon; top-tier for SBL, but talon to be top for lv 15
you need lv 15 tinsel and pepper.. another 6m
After (bows): 200k for armor and 150k for bow 55 plat TOP gear(can't get much better)
600-800k?(art) armor and 150k for bow and 55 plat top-tier gear

Thats y more non harcore non-pro casual gamers appeared, ofc their is also a great increase in multiple chars, like one guy having 5-10 lv 10-15 twinks

Last, but not least, I see Yich's point
Bows are OP and for people (like me) who invested alot of hard work into xmas stuff, it suked alot...
The only good thing is that I have often seen people continue to use matches in serious fights, that means they still live on...

[GoodSyntax]

My point about trying to avoid nerfing the F-Bow is because they are actually very useful for PvE.

Yes, I know all the gripes about PvP - and the points are real, valid and have a lot of merit, but the overwhelming majority of PL players don't PvP - or at least not often. The bread and butter of this game is PvE, and that's exactly where the F-Bows shine.

True, there are other equips available for PvE, but the best gear, especially at low levels would be Artisan, Blacksmith, Green Ice, VooDoo, Copperhead, etc. - all of which are extremely expensive. Now certainly, I'm no apologist for cheapskates and those who are unwilling to grind and farm, but I also recognize that more than half of the PL population would be considered casual gamers - random, quick gaming sessions; nothing hardcore. I am aware that us hardcore types do spend more on average, but the 5% of the top spenders in game cannot offset the 50-75% who game casually and occasionally buy some plat for random items/maps.

We had this same argument after the Winter Fest, and true, it appears the the F-Bows make WF weapons look like pea-shooters, but I'm sure PvP can recover....eventually. It's just tough right now because there is a flood of F-Bows, much like when WF ended, there was a flood of WF SBL's, ToyMan's, Iron PJs, etc. In time, with player attrition, the inventory of F-Bows will decrease and order will be restored (to a point), it's just that right now, it seems like EVERYONE is using Forgotten weapons.

[MightyMicah]

My point about trying to avoid nerfing the F-Bow is because they are actually very useful for PvE.

Yes, I know all the gripes about PvP - and the points are real, valid and have a lot of merit, but the overwhelming majority of PL players don't PvP - or at least not often. The bread and butter of this game is PvE, and that's exactly where the F-Bows shine.

True, there are other equips available for PvE, but the best gear, especially at low levels would be Artisan, Blacksmith, Green Ice, VooDoo, Copperhead, etc. - all of which are extremely expensive. Now certainly, I'm no apologist for cheapskates and those who are unwilling to grind and farm, but I also recognize that more than half of the PL population would be considered casual gamers - random, quick gaming sessions; nothing hardcore. I am aware that us hardcore types do spend more on average, but the 5% of the top spenders in game cannot offset the 50-75% who game casually and occasionally buy some plat for random items/maps.

We had this same argument after the Winter Fest, and true, it appears the the F-Bows make WF weapons look like pea-shooters, but I'm sure PvP can recover....eventually. It's just tough right now because there is a flood of F-Bows, much like when WF ended, there was a flood of WF SBL's, ToyMan's, Iron PJs, etc. In time, with player attrition, the inventory of F-Bows will decrease and order will be restored (to a point), it's just that right now, it seems like EVERYONE is using Forgotten weapons.

The difference is pve does not suffer hardly at all without the bows, especially not with these new daily elixirs. Then pve WITH these bows really doesnt improve all that much. It just makes people be weaker and use a single-handed weapon in their lust for damage. Whereas PVP with these bows has been completely wrecked of variety and skill from levels 10-40.