Thread: The forgotten difference
If only you were this passionate about something that actually mattered, you might accomplish something worthwhile.
I'm seriously dumbfounded at the 'effort' you've put into this. I don't care either way, but hopefully the devs throw a bone so another 'I quit' thread doesn't pop up.
before the forgotten bows weren't most low level twinks (10-30) bears? I assumed most were bears because with rage they were OP. Seems to me like bows just allow other low level classes to go dex and compete better with the bears.
I used a support mage in PvP in the pre forgotten era. I loved it. Bears were easier to use, but I think birds and mages had more potential. Plenty of birds showed up, some did good (vv/jake and lost was ok). Bears were definitely an easier class, but now birds are pretty OP with dodge and the ability to nuke hard.Originally Posted by robert7204
I have to agree with you Yich, I am not a fan of discontinued items being so OP'd that they would be considered the "minimum required gear." This concept alienates new players, because if you missed the event, you are either going to get kill farmed by someone with the gear, or you shell out hundreds of thousands, if not millions, for gear that puts you on a level playing field.
It's certainly one thing if these discontinued items provide a slight advantage (like Founders, and other vanities with stats), but as you showcased, 2X DPS is, in a word, unfair. Yes, I too am hoarding a bunch of pink and purple F-Bows from all levels, but it is more for defense than for merching. If I want to start a new toon for lvl 17 PVP my KDR would be 0.002 if I didn't have a representative equip. These days, low level PVP is more about gear than tactics (to some extent) - which is unfortunate, because casual players simply don't have millions available to purchase elite gear. Some just want to play when they have some free time - and those are the ones who get farmed, and ultimately will quit PVP entirely.
Personally, I would favor the release of a new low level map that drops strong gear that offsets the damage of the bows. Also, introducing a crafting component would be nice. The point is that the only way to reset low level PVP is to make armor that can offset the damage widely available, and provide other weapons besides bows. I'm not talking about just a WF, or Halloween event that becomes discontinued after a couple of weeks, but a main-spine map that drops good armors and other weapons - like talons, wands, staffs, swords. Unfortunately, this is a dangerous proposition, because it makes gear from FE, SSC and other maps obsolete, but I don't see any recourse other than nerfing - which I am not a fan of. Perhaps new armor with high dodge - but again, that makes luck the biggest factor and still minimizes tactics. I wish I could find an obvious solution (other than nerfing) that would fix everything, but anything that combats the F-Bows unbalances PVP even further - the only real differentiation is that the gear has to be available to all (either through grinding, farming or purchasing), unlike these discontinued bows.
Personally, it's disappointing that everyone is specing as Dex Bears, Dexchantresses and Dex Birds. Every build has to have strengths and weaknesses. Without weaknesses, there is no variety in the game.
AL: Kalizzaa
Retired Officer of <Elite Runners>
Elite Chronicles: Solo guides for elite maps - No longer maintained
This seems like the recognition of a problem but refusal to accept the correct solution. When I say nerf, regardless of what other people mean, I mean they should be balanced. At 2x the damage of others, being balanced would mean they need to be nerfed. I guess I'll start saying they need balance. I would have been very much up for the forgotten update had the stats been balanced with other weapons at their level. I thought it was some kind of joke when people argued that they shouldn't be balanced, but is watevs.
I really hope the devs just give us their decision........ I've been waiting for more than a month and they havent even said if they will nerf or wont nerf..... If your not gonna nerf and its final.... TELL US!
If you are gonna nerf TELL US! Just tell us the truth, its not like we are gonna kill you if you say no nerfing....
Guys, just wait. Techno already said that they were going to release new items to balance stuff out. I can't stand it either, but what use is there in complaining? Just wait until they release the new items.
And by the way, you should be more specific. Only the forgotten bows should be nerfed.
Reun
Last edited by Reunegade; 10-01-2012 at 06:17 PM.
The other F weapons have pretty high damage, but I'll look closer to find out for sure. Also, if Techno Email continues with her current trend, adding new armor and helms won't be a very good solution, as she will discontinue them too...Guys, just wait. Techno already said that they were going to release new items to balance stuff out. I can't stand it either, but what use is there in complaining? Just wait until they release the new items.
And by the way, you should be more specific. Only the forgotten bows should be nerfed.
Reun
But the thing with the other forgotten items are that not alot of ppl use the other forgotten items. And if Techno does add helms and armors, then there will be even more chaos in the forums -_- Let's just cross our fingers and hope that they'll just make new weapons.
Techno Email making new easy to obtain weapons would still undermine the previous tier, since in the past, the more effective an item was, the harder it was to obtain. I see no reason for Techno to change this, but I guess she writes the code.
Who ever said Techno was going to make easy-to-obtain weapons? But of course, she never said she was going to make hard-to-obtain weapons O.o
The horse is only dead for those who want it dead...
Yich, this is a great thread. It's about time you stopped spamming everywhere and brought the hardcore proof and logic. Well done dude. I couldn't agree more. Everyone who was anyone in this game agrees with us. I just wish those guys would hop on the forums. The devs do what they think is best. From what they've seen, most people like the new bows. They've seen wrong.
~MM
Thanks for your support. People PM me in game saying they agree with my thread.. Only making me question as to why they didn't post on it... Oh well. To each their own..
Alright guys,
Think about.
Devs are people who program this game on various platforms ranging from IOS to Droid (forgot what Android platform was called)
to flash for PC? So they probably can do math and can tell what stats the bows are...
I'm pretty sure they have a solution to this problem. They just don't want to release it a month after F Bows...
What's the point of creating F bows? - Attract more people to play since school starting in Sept. takes alot of players away...
To remove/nerd F bows will be real nice for low lv pvp, yes, but...
Devs prob want to make their hard work count for something and last a while...
Prob halloween or xmas events will overpower bows, although that would be scary.. since bows are high hitting enough...
Prob a nerf or better proc for new items that will make bows more balanced...
And to all those people who say ppl this is down right logic..
80% of you didn't read the post word to word..
if you're aoa, then I would understand that you actually care..
the rest are just ranters saying F bows are OP..
To me, the update doesn't make a dif cuz I own anyways and that I invested mils into sbl and tinsel and pepper which I use
quite often against bow nubs (nubs who have crap armor but use bows) for fun and pro twinks who like to use talons
The major pro point of bows is that it gives more people a chance at the "pros" even though its almost total BS cuz all you do is cross your fingers (figuratively) and spam skills
I must say, pvp matches ( at least in my data ) trended upward,
Before: Not many rushers, but mostly rich people with top gear ( I admit I was close to one of these guys)
After: More non-pro players who rush, but also more people who pvp for fun
Before: 200k for duck, 200k for armor and 55 plat (at the least) for helm, shield, ring, face and talon; mostly top-tier gear lv 10-14
3m for SBL, 900k-1.4m for armor and 55 plat(at the least) for helm, shield, ring, face and talon; top-tier for SBL, but talon to be top for lv 15
you need lv 15 tinsel and pepper.. another 6m
After (bows): 200k for armor and 150k for bow 55 plat TOP gear(can't get much better)
600-800k?(art) armor and 150k for bow and 55 plat top-tier gear
Thats y more non harcore non-pro casual gamers appeared, ofc their is also a great increase in multiple chars, like one guy having 5-10 lv 10-15 twinks
Last, but not least, I see Yich's point
Bows are OP and for people (like me) who invested alot of hard work into xmas stuff, it suked alot...
The only good thing is that I have often seen people continue to use matches in serious fights, that means they still live on...
My point about trying to avoid nerfing the F-Bow is because they are actually very useful for PvE.
Yes, I know all the gripes about PvP - and the points are real, valid and have a lot of merit, but the overwhelming majority of PL players don't PvP - or at least not often. The bread and butter of this game is PvE, and that's exactly where the F-Bows shine.
True, there are other equips available for PvE, but the best gear, especially at low levels would be Artisan, Blacksmith, Green Ice, VooDoo, Copperhead, etc. - all of which are extremely expensive. Now certainly, I'm no apologist for cheapskates and those who are unwilling to grind and farm, but I also recognize that more than half of the PL population would be considered casual gamers - random, quick gaming sessions; nothing hardcore. I am aware that us hardcore types do spend more on average, but the 5% of the top spenders in game cannot offset the 50-75% who game casually and occasionally buy some plat for random items/maps.
We had this same argument after the Winter Fest, and true, it appears the the F-Bows make WF weapons look like pea-shooters, but I'm sure PvP can recover....eventually. It's just tough right now because there is a flood of F-Bows, much like when WF ended, there was a flood of WF SBL's, ToyMan's, Iron PJs, etc. In time, with player attrition, the inventory of F-Bows will decrease and order will be restored (to a point), it's just that right now, it seems like EVERYONE is using Forgotten weapons.
AL: Kalizzaa
Retired Officer of <Elite Runners>
Elite Chronicles: Solo guides for elite maps - No longer maintained
The difference is pve does not suffer hardly at all without the bows, especially not with these new daily elixirs. Then pve WITH these bows really doesnt improve all that much. It just makes people be weaker and use a single-handed weapon in their lust for damage. Whereas PVP with these bows has been completely wrecked of variety and skill from levels 10-40.
I remember the arguement, and that was a big reason I posted this. The pics prove that the sbl is a fair match for the oh so common talon and shield, even the sbl proc can be beaten by a smart opponent. The difference is that these are not equal to anything, and anyone with a brain can use the f bow to beat anyone without an f bow at low level. Its just OP, why must everyone argue away from the obvious solution of balancing it?
I guess I'm really arguing against the concept of nerfing/rebalancing in general. I agree, F-Bows are OP'd and take no skill at all to use in PvP. I just don't like it when things get nerfed - it is an unsettling approach that does have repercussions. Frankly, OP'd items should be something that devs are aware of before they get into the general population - I can't imagine that everyone in STS would claim that they weren't aware of the stats relative to other weapons at each level - I mean, they took the time to give a name to each leveled item.
Honestly, I really don't know how many items have been nerfed in-game, but I can't imagine it has occurred often. The F-Bows have already had a base stat requirement adjustment which affected my Dex-Bear, I just don't want to get into a situation where every time I log in, something in my inventory is adjusted. I would much rather have the F-Bows worked out of the active game inventory through player attrition...and along the way if there are more people who get involved with PvP because they have a representative equip, then that's cool too.
Don't get me wrong Yich, I agree with your point...I just don't like nerfing as I feel it is too heavy handed of an approach to something that should be identified in development/testing. I'm not saying that it doesn't warrant a nerf, just that I don't like concept of nerfing as an acceptable approach to a poor judgement call when F-Bows were first conceptualized.
I can't imagine that the following was the inception of the F-Bow:
Techno: I want to make a super powerful bow that will be at least 2x better than anything else.
Everyone Else At STS: Wouldn't that destroy low-level PvP and create an imbalance?
Techno: I don't think so.
Everyone Else At STS: OK, we can just nerf it later if anyone says anything.
Techno: No, I'll just make OP'd armor with 100 dodge to combat it.
Everyone Else At STS: o.O You sure?
Techno: Yep. But it will only drop in premium, pay-to-play dungeons.
Everyone Else At STS: Uhh....won't people be upset if we keep nerfing things
Techno: No problem, we can just give them a Nerf Frisbee vanity shield.
Everyone Else At STS: Yeah, people love vanities. Let's go with it.
AL: Kalizzaa
Retired Officer of <Elite Runners>
Elite Chronicles: Solo guides for elite maps - No longer maintained
I agree, but I respond with this. Why? Sure, they've updated and added new items, some stronger than others slightly. Why now, have they decided that small stats are so bad, that they need to double all the stats for low level items and make a whole new balanced tier? People can act like they did it before, but no where near this kind of scale. So to those who say "adapt, get over it, move on, they did it before they'll do it again", I say nay. There's no real reason to drastically change low level, especially when making the F bows balanced would have been better. Imagine instead of spending a lot of time and effort making new gear that wouldn't have a happy medium drop rate(drop rate is high, annoys experienced players; drop rate is low, alienates new players as they would a very small survival rate, smaller than that of the previous noobs who couldnt afford WF items), they made difficult to obtain items that were balanced with the current tier (recipe armors, plat bought helms and shields, WF weaps and JT talon) and made the F bow slightly weaker than the SBL overall. This way, people that spend more time farming/moneymaking get some kind of an advantage over the new players who can get a forgotten bow very easily, but not so much of an advantage that the newer players are alienated. If STS would spend the time they planned to us making a whole new tier of gear just to balance the F bow out and instead used it to make more items that are balanced with the current tier, I think the general population would be much happier. Instead of 1 or 2 sets of gear that dominate all, there could be 5 or 6 that all work differently and succeed in different situations.
Last edited by Yich; 10-02-2012 at 02:56 PM.
All I know is that I can own level 30 mages with my shivering x-bow.
My point is, sure the F items are over powered but no one told you to use them, if STS has a plan for them then let STS work it out, for now just go with the flow...
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