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  Click here to go to the first Dev post in this thread.   Thread: Feedback: 86 Force Weapons

  1.   Click here to go to the next Dev post in this thread.   #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Encryptions View Post
    Is this based on player stats or damage dealt to 1 single mob? If stats what stops us from buying a starbeast chak weapon with 3k more damage and is affected by haste? If damage dealt- was procs involved when testing, and what made the result that the bow is 7.5% better? Warriors' sword can clear mobs extremely fast, mages' gun is affected by haste.
    My data comes from dealing damage to monsters of varying types including the procs. In my test environment I have a variety of popular gear combos and the 'best' OP gear combos available to see what's viable and what's maximal. The amount of damage dealt to minions, minibosses and boss monsters with the current setup is about 7.5% higher with respect to the DPS, sustained max damage, and minimum damage.

    That said, there are definitely big differences in the playstyles wherein the sword can pull and the gun doesn't have a windup (unlike the bow). Furthermore, this thread has been very helpful.

    Therefore, even though I'm seeing the bow as a clear leader with respect to damage in my testing, I'm gonna buff its damage, proc damage and proc chance.
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  2.   Click here to go to the next Dev post in this thread.   #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vikusato View Post
    So....of rusk bow is performing 7.5% better than other weapons why the buff?
    Because so many players have responded indicating that they feel the bow is underpowered.

    And indeed, even though it performs better in internal testing the actual in-game performance of the bow feels a bit weak compared to the others.

    It's generally fine so it doesn't need a huge buff; just a small one.

    I'm quite sure that once the buff is public players will still want more. You only need to read a few forum threads to know that, for various Legends, even the most OP gears "need buff." :-)
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    Clear leader in damage but you buff it anyways? So all we gotta do is get a dozen mages or warrs to complain about something(Even know they are wrong) and you will buff things that dont need it? You should be testing this solely with whatever new balance changes that are coming/ New arc gear.

    I guess im going back to rog because i feel like these weapons are not going to be meta soon. That and/or proc damage is going to get balanced and rogs will be dominant again.

    The way you handled this feedback should be how you handle all the other mass complaints by players, there is a lot of them with much more urgent complaints yet here we are buffing a bow that didn't need it.

  4.   Click here to go to the next Dev post in this thread.   #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchback View Post
    Clear leader in damage but you buff it anyways?
    It's about the haste - and I didn't spell that out for players who aren't using the bow.

    Comparing Rusk Dynamo weaponry without the impact of haste puts the bow ahead by a small margin.

    Considering the effect of haste has led me to buff the bow. It's not a huge buff and it can still be overwhelmed by other class' access to haste effects on various weapons (and procs that depend on skill usage) - but it's not a bad thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinco View Post
    Because so many players have responded indicating that they feel the bow is underpowered.

    And indeed, even though it performs better in internal testing the actual in-game performance of the bow feels a bit weak compared to the others.

    It's generally fine so it doesn't need a huge buff; just a small one.

    I'm quite sure that once the buff is public players will still want more. You only need to read a few forum threads to know that, for various Legends, even the most OP gears "need buff." :-)
    the only reason the bow feel so weak is because its slow fire rate
    Maby it does a little bit more damage than the other rusk weapons but however I see a mage with 40-60% haste procs literally "Machine Gun" mobs

    By the time I make 2 attacks he make 7 attacks

    so if I kill x6 mobs (3 + 3) he is able to kill 21 mobs (3 + 3+ 3 +3 +3 + 3 +3)

    That's literally the only reason.

    @Cinco If I were you and bows wouldn't work with haste I would have probably just make the same thing you guys did with Marianos, which is buffing the CHARGE TIME

    Bow and Gun can have differences, if bow cant be used like a spam "Mini Gun" weapon, then just make the charged attacks be faster

    but that's just my opinion

  7.   Click here to go to the next Dev post in this thread.   #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by trueido View Post
    the only reason the bow feel so weak is because its slow fire rate
    I know.

    Haste and bows is still being addressed and won't be ready for public consumption for a while.

    In the meantime you get a buff. It is far from a perfect solution - but it's better than doing nothing imo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Encryptions View Post
    Is this based on player stats or damage dealt to 1 single mob? If stats what stops us from buying a starbeast chak weapon with 3k more damage and is affected by haste? If damage dealt- was procs involved when testing, and what made the result that the bow is 7.5% better? Warriors' sword can clear mobs extremely fast, mages' gun is affected by haste.
    Rusk bow was a failed weapon overall. Mage gun was a successful weapon, rusk sword is also a successful weapon interms of mob clearing. But current farming maps are all "only boss type" zones where there r no mobs making rusk sword useless in everyday farming . The devs definitely doesn't know their own game

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinco View Post
    I know.

    Haste and bows is still being addressed and won't be ready for public consumption for a while.

    In the meantime you get a buff. It is far from a perfect solution - but it's better than doing nothing imo.
    How about just faster charge attacks?

  11.   Click here to go to the next Dev post in this thread.   #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by trueido View Post
    How about just faster charge attacks?
    First thing I tried - and that breaks a bunch of other stuff. So it's not as simple as that, I'm sorry to say. Would've loved to just speed up those charge attacks :-)
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    Not so strong for rogue i think

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinco View Post
    First thing I tried - and that breaks a bunch of other stuff. So it's not as simple as that, I'm sorry to say. Would've loved to just speed up those charge attacks :-)
    Oh well I see..

    But thank you for looking into it Cinco, appreciated the listening to the community ^^

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  16.   Click here to go to the next Dev post in this thread.   #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by trueido View Post
    Oh well I see..

    But thank you for looking into it Cinco, appreciated the listening to the community ^^
    Appreciate it.

    To set expectations (this is very hard to do on the forums where every announcement is seen as the ultimate extreme variant of whatever we're talking about)... the changes to the Rusk Dynamo bow are good but are not going to solve the issue with how much haste can affect things by contrast.

    The team continues to look into the haste / projectile issues. If the changes are too invasive we may need to bite the bullet and start building new animation suites with different timings based on the cumulative effect of other Class' access to haste buffs so that the bow weapon is not forever left in the past. All avenues are long and fraught with the possibility of introducing greater instability.
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    WAR: OGSour
    MAGE: GasPack
    ROGUE: Trichomez

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinco View Post
    Because so many players have responded indicating that they feel the bow is underpowered.

    And indeed, even though it performs better in internal testing the actual in-game performance of the bow feels a bit weak compared to the others.

    It's generally fine so it doesn't need a huge buff; just a small one.

    I'm quite sure that once the buff is public players will still want more. You only need to read a few forum threads to know that, for various Legends, even the most OP gears "need buff." :-)
    Yes it does seem reasonable for the buff on bow considering. Haste doesn't seem to effect the projectile speed for it. What about rusk sword any plans to change the reflection proc? Currently rusk sword is underperforming sow chainsword a 2mill weapon on hedo. I don't think it's reasonable tbh. I would not be complaining about rusk sword if there was a map where I could actually use it to farm consistently like hedo so I guess my point is valid

  20.   Click here to go to the next Dev post in this thread.   #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vikusato View Post
    Yes it does seem reasonable for the buff on bow considering. Haste doesn't seem to effect the projectile speed for it. What about rusk sword any plans to change the reflection proc? Currently rusk sword is underperforming sow chainsword a 2mill weapon on hedo. I don't think it's reasonable tbh. I would not be complaining about rusk sword if there was a map where I could actually use it to farm consistently like hedo so I guess my point is valid
    The reflection gameplay is clearly stated in the weapon details.

    Obviously this is for situations where slapping back a thousand percent of incoming damage is useful. If you are in a situation where that's not going to help, you will do much better with a different weapon that supports a different style of gameplay more appropriate to that scenario.

    It is totally reasonable for this weapon to play differently than other weapons of its type and other weapons in the suite.
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    Thanks for the bow buff! It was necessary, hopefully one day bow can get the haste mechanics aswell.

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    Angry reflect proc useless in pve

    Quote Originally Posted by Cinco
    Obviously this is for situations where slapping back a thousand percent of incoming damage is useful
    ugh...do these situations exist?

    I wrote this when you said the following(but decided not to send it; now i've changed my mind seeing you insist with it's usefulness):
    Quote Originally Posted by Cinco
    it's a different playstyle compared to the 81
    what is the different playstyle?

    the weapon is the better version of the 81 one
    both stat and proc-wise(better stats/higher pull range)

    i tested the reflect in any way and circumstance i could think of(in pve; not interested in pvp so idc how it behaves there):

    1. BOSSES:
      • it only tickles bosses
      • i tested in different lb maps
      • there's no way the proc could be useful against a lvl 86 boss

    2. MOBS:
      • against endgame mobs it does a little bit of damage but not worth mentioning
      • also since elder woods has the affliction system you would want to avoid being hit, but you have to get hit to reflect any damage...

      so it provides no offensive use

    3. DEFENSE:
      • initially i thought the reflect would mean that the damage would be reflected instead of dealt to the character but that's false; can die as easily with the reflect shield as without
      • you have to actually take damage to reflect anything; nothing is reflected if you use horn of renew shield
      • so the damage it can deal is limited by how much hp you have; and given that the elder woods mobs kill me in 1 second with 60k hp that's not a lot of damage...

      so it provides no deffensive use

    4. BUFF:
      • even if it had 2500% damage as it was before it would still be bad
      • probably even with 10000% reflected damage we would still consider it a hindrance to use
      • so imo there's no point in simply buffing the reflected value


    the only possible reason i could come up with for it to exist is to mess with our procs/loadouts by adding an useless cooldown
    which by the way can be avoided by simply not using the charged attack at all...but i think that's kinda sad...

    in the end you could've said the cd is a trade-off for the higher range and we would've made peace with that eventually
    but to say "iT's A dIfFerENt PlaYStYle" made me angry cuz it makes me think that you're not playing your own game
    now i've been writing this as constructive as i could and i cooled off in the meantime

    IF indeed there is a way to utilise the proc in any useful manner and my small brain couldn't think about it then someone please enlighten me and i'll apologise asap
    if not well then...


    Quote Originally Posted by iulicutu
    proposed solutions:
    • either remove the shield proc completely and leave the weapon as it is
    • or make the shield a separate proc that doesn't trigger weapon slot cd
    so in the end you could say: "the weapon was too strong and we decided to hinder efficient use of other weapon procs by adding a 12s cooldown on it's charged attack
    and we added a reflect shield to justify that cooldown even thou we know nobody is going to actually use it in any scenarios"

    if that is what you mean by:
    Quote Originally Posted by Cinco
    this weapon play differently than other weapons of its type and other weapons in the suite
    then yes I agree sadly

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  24.   Click here to go to the next Dev post in this thread.   #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by iulicutu View Post
    ugh...do these situations exist?

    I wrote this when you said the following(but decided not to send it; now i've changed my mind seeing you insist with it's usefulness):


    what is the different playstyle?

    the weapon is the better version of the 81 one
    both stat and proc-wise(better stats/higher pull range)

    i tested the reflect in any way and circumstance i could think of(in pve; not interested in pvp so idc how it behaves there):

    1. BOSSES:
      • it only tickles bosses
      • i tested in different lb maps
      • there's no way the proc could be useful against a lvl 86 boss

    2. MOBS:
      • against endgame mobs it does a little bit of damage but not worth mentioning
      • also since elder woods has the affliction system you would want to avoid being hit, but you have to get hit to reflect any damage...

      so it provides no offensive use

    3. DEFENSE:
      • initially i thought the reflect would mean that the damage would be reflected instead of dealt to the character but that's false; can die as easily with the reflect shield as without
      • you have to actually take damage to reflect anything; nothing is reflected if you use horn of renew shield
      • so the damage it can deal is limited by how much hp you have; and given that the elder woods mobs kill me in 1 second with 60k hp that's not a lot of damage...

      so it provides no deffensive use

    4. BUFF:
      • even if it had 2500% damage as it was before it would still be bad
      • probably even with 10000% reflected damage we would still consider it a hindrance to use
      • so imo there's no point in simply buffing the reflected value


    the only possible reason i could come up with for it to exist is to mess with our procs/loadouts by adding an useless cooldown
    which by the way can be avoided by simply not using the charged attack at all...but i think that's kinda sad...

    in the end you could've said the cd is a trade-off for the higher range and we would've made peace with that eventually
    but to say "iT's A dIfFerENt PlaYStYle" made me angry cuz it makes me think that you're not playing your own game
    now i've been writing this as constructive as i could and i cooled off in the meantime

    IF indeed there is a way to utilise the proc in any useful manner and my small brain couldn't think about it then someone please enlighten me and i'll apologise asap
    if not well then...




    so in the end you could say: "the weapon was too strong and we decided to hinder efficient use of other weapon procs by adding a 12s cooldown on it's charged attack
    and we added a reflect shield to justify that cooldown even thou we know nobody is going to actually use it in any scenarios"

    if that is what you mean by:
    then yes I agree sadly
    No need to apologize for your playstyle :-)

    It sounds like you're pretty sold on the idea of removing the reflection all-together, and I can respect that. I personally like making the mobs take reflected damage - but I can accept that I'm an outlier and that all the respondents in this thread patently disagree.

    We'll strip it out. Not gonna happen today but it'll happen.

    Appreciate the detailed and level-headed feedback.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinco View Post
    No need to apologize for your playstyle :-)

    It sounds like you're pretty sold on the idea of removing the reflection all-together, and I can respect that. I personally like making the mobs take reflected damage - but I can accept that I'm an outlier and that all the respondents in this thread patently disagree.

    We'll strip it out. Not gonna happen today but it'll happen.

    Appreciate the detailed and level-headed feedback.
    Maybe if instead of reflection it could counter attack like anky. If damage was based on own damagey, the proc dmg should be fine. This would need to be adjusted or disabled in pvp tho probably.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaAaT View Post
    Maybe if instead of reflection it could counter attack like anky. If damage was based on own damagey, the proc dmg should be fine. This would need to be adjusted or disabled in pvp tho probably.
    That's a cool idea worth considering. I don't know if it'll be quite as popular as applying a 'burn' DoT similar to the other Rusk Dynamo stuff.

    Indeed, if the Rusk Dyanmo sword followed the same pattern as the others (hit more targets on charge, increase chance for target debuffs) it would be simplest.

    However, taking advice from some of the earlier posts in this thread: the Rusk Dynamo sword probably doesn't need anything apart from the pull and the target debuffs its already doing :-)
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