Blinded by dps

[Royce]

Bonus damage is unrelated to Crit. Crit for weapon attacks and skills is 200% unless otherwise specified by a skill. Otherwise, as you say, crit damage increasing skills would already be useless since end game you should have over 250% bonus damage. Bonus damage is just the affect your primary attribute (Dex for rogue for example) has in your damage. I honestly think they'd be better off hiding that stat from the display since it's more confusing than helpful.

[CosmoxKramer]

Bonus Damage impacts your Damage

Crits happen at 200% for all AA or Skills unless you take a skill that increases crit damage by 25/50%.

Your DPS on your Avatar page (not what you do through a fight) is incomplete because it doesn't factor in Crit%/Crit Damage%. So I like to do a side calculation of my own that i call True DPS which takes DPS * (1+ (Crit% *2)) where the 2 is representing 200% crit damage for your AA. I do this because when you look at a weapon "of Assault" vs a weapon "of Force", i can see the true difference in dps.

[CosmoxKramer]

Hmm, that's true for most spells but Arcane Shield, for example, and -25% hit on charged FB-- these might actually be vital to your build. Mana from charged Heal might actually make or break a team since I've heard no pots are allowed.

That's what I'm talking about-- the tankier players are, the more important considerations like speccing into int/str are.. and factors like DPS come into play (mana conservation).

Nuke fest PvP is lame because there is no "high-level"-- only who gets into position and gets the crit first. Not much skill in that.

Thanks Prima. This is what i was thinking especially with higher HP levels for everyone and that armor is a % reduction (probably everyone has 30-60% at a given level cap). So -25% hit chance, charging gale force, a Charged Time Shift for the freeze would be magical for a Sorc vs. Rogue. It may be a lot more like a WoW pvp where you CC, run with a few attacks in between. Not just a nuke fest like someone pointed out PL was

[Energizeric]

Your DPS on your Avatar page (not what you do through a fight) is incomplete because it doesn't factor in Crit%/Crit Damage%. So I like to do a side calculation of my own that i call True DPS which takes DPS * (1+ (Crit% *2)) where the 2 is representing 200% crit damage for your AA. I do this because when you look at a weapon "of Assault" vs a weapon "of Force", i can see the true difference in dps.

Interesting. I was wondering this myself when comparing the clever flamestrike rod of assault with the clever flamestrike rod of force. The rod of force has less dmg but higher crit and also has STR instead of DEX which is more useful for a mage (higher health), so I did consider saving the money and getting the rod of force. What does your calculation say about the difference between those two?

[Yakiniku]

Really guys, not to troll but 2 rogues having an agro epeen contest is no testing. U test by going at with exactly the same equip except for ur weapons.

If it matters, I did a test last week exactly as you described. Same gear, same spec, same everything, just switching out daggers. L21 Bane Knives of Potency versus L20 Mighty Lifethief of Potency (yea, not even an ALP). MLP DPS rating was higher, but Bane Knives damage rating and DEX were significantly higher. I duoed with a warrior so he could spam heal (lol) and we probably did like 5-7 runs with each set of daggers. I didn't do an exact average calculation, but the Bane Knives runs usually ended around 1:15, whereas the MLP runs would end right around the 1:00 mark, or sometimes a few seconds faster.

I'd like to add that the Bane Knives probably didn't get a fair shake since my spec and skill rotation revolve around Shadow Veil and stacked AS crit % to boost normal attack damage. But let's be honest here. Who is going to blow 5-10 mana pots on something like Jarl just to flex their skill-oriented damage? I'll save that, and probably the Bane Knives, for pvp.

I know anecdotal tests like this don't really prove anything though, but just thought I'd throw my results out there since you mentioned it.

Anyway, I have to agree with GoodSyntax. This thread has been very good on information and theories. I'm especially interested in CosmoxKramer's hidden math posts.

[Bless]

I can personally confirm that Rush has awsome damage stats. Him and I did some elite Jarl runs last night, just the 2 of us with no others in the party. And we usually beat him before the clock on our run reached 1:45, and sometimes as soon as 1:15. Normally when I run with a whole party of 4 it takes 2:30-3:00. He chops down the boss faster than most groups are able to. If we had a couple other good players added to the group we could probably beat Jarl in well less than a minute.

Pics or it didn't happen.

solo jarl in around 49 seconds, my tab 2 has the hold screenshot so it took some seconds to take screenie. :P

[wvhills]

i'm blinded by science, not dps

[CosmoxKramer]

Interesting. I was wondering this myself when comparing the clever flamestrike rod of assault with the clever flamestrike rod of force. The rod of force has less dmg but higher crit and also has STR instead of DEX which is more useful for a mage (higher health), so I did consider saving the money and getting the rod of force. What does your calculation say about the difference between those two?

a 21 Clever Flamestrike Rod of Force gives me 134.4 Damage, 9.78 Crit, 241.9 DPS, 1944 Health
My True DPS Calculation using Crit gives 289.2
Fireball Average Damage + Crit formula = 217.4
Lightning Avg Damage + Crit = 332.7
Frost Bolt / Time Shift Avg Dam + Crit = 288.7

a 21 Clever Flamestrike Rod of Assault gives me 141 Damage, 8.27% Crit, 253.8 DPS, 1913 Health
My True DPS Calculation using Crit gives 295.8
Fireball Average Damage + Crit formula = 222.3
Lightning Avg Damage + Crit = 340.2
Frost Bolt / Time Shift Avg Dam + Crit = 295.2

So basically the difference between a crit weapon and a Damage weapon isn't too huge. if 5 points of DPS from weapons and 5 from skill damage is worth 2x+ the price for an item, then more power to you.

Also, the difference between a 25 Int, 13 Str, 3 Dam ring and a 25 Int, 6 Str, 1.76% Crit looks like 12.8 DPS, but with crit it is more like 7.4 difference and the skills are only 5.5-8.5 damage delta with crit factored in. I think if you really stacked crit through your gear instead of stacking Damage you could close the gap more. Until you can get to 30% crit though (not talking about 3s of Ribbit) then the +Damage is still better, but not insanely better to where you need cash out a 401k to go buy some plat for each patch

[Royce]

Until you can get to 30% crit though (not talking about 3s of Ribbit) then the +Damage is still better, but not insanely better to where you need cash out a 401k to go buy some plat for each patch

Wait why 30%? Each percent crit should be the same increase in overall DPS whether you're starting from 0% or 99% shouldn't it?

[primaeva]

He's referring to the "breakpoint" where additional damage ceases to do more true DPS than increasing crit, I believe.

[Royce]

He's referring to the "breakpoint" where additional damage ceases to do more true DPS than increasing crit, I believe.

Is there a "breakpoint" in this game though? My math may be off, but from what I understand of damage, crit, and armor in AL, 1% damage should be exactly equal to 1% Crit for overall dps unless you are able to break 100% Crit.

[primaeva]

Is there a "breakpoint" in this game though? My math may be off, but from what I understand of damage, crit, and armor in AL, 1% damage should be exactly equal to 1% Crit for overall dps unless you are able to break 100% Crit.

Well, I'm not sure what math was used to derive the 30% figure, but the reason why the breakpoint exists is because the crit multiplier isn't always 200%.

For example, take base damage 100 with crit multiplier 250%. Attacks per second = 1.

1% DPS = 1 damage.

100% extra DPS = 200 damage

100% crit = 250 damage.

========

To better illustrate:

10% more damage = 110 damage per attack
Take that x 100 attacks (no crits) = flat 11000 damage.

10% crit = 100 damage for 90 attacks = 9000 damage
... plus 250 damage for 10 attacks = 2500 damage.

Add 9000 to 2500 = 11500, which is more than the pure 10% damage.

The breakpoint is actually less than 10% in this case. Why is it 30% in his calculation? Well, because only lightning has 250% multiplier. If all crits had a higher multiplier, you would of course see crit favoured over a flat damage increase.

Hope this explained it!

[GoodSyntax]

Just a little more anecdotal evidence...

Recently got a lv 19 Frost Heart of Brutality for comparison against a lv 16 Mighty Lifethief of Potency

While the overall math indicates that the total damage output per minute is slightly higher with the bow, clearing maps took longer due to the decreased DPS. The issue revolves around the fact that hitting a 200 HP mob with 300 damage still kills the mob - but the average kills per second calculation goes up as an overkill is still just a kill.

The secondary side effect that I noticed is that a charged auto attack has some AoE damage, meaning you can damage more mobs per hit than with a bow. This fact more any anything else seems to contribute to the slow down.

Ultimately, I did notice a large improvement when facing bosses as my skills and auto both hit much harder, but for mob clean-up the bow is a hindrance and the daggers would be the preferred weapon.

What would be a huge gameplay improvement for me would be load-outs like all the other Legends games. Equip DPS centric gear for mobs/map clearing and Damage centric gear for Bosses/Mini-Bosses.

I must admit, when I crit Aimed Shot with the bow, the damage is outstanding.

[primaeva]

Actually, dagger AAs need not be charged to hit more than one target. I will investigate this effect tomorrow.

[GoodSyntax]

My rogue only does the spin attack when AA is charged.

Either way, it has a huge impact on map clearing, at least for me.

Also, I can't see the value of a charged bow attack (I've only had the bow for an hour) - perhaps someone has a compelling reason why I should charge my bow's AA.

I'm curious to see what your conclusions will be primaeva.

[Royce]

Well, I'm not sure what math was used to derive the 30% figure, but the reason why the breakpoint exists is because the crit multiplier isn't always 200%.

Ah thanks, I hadn't considered the >200% crit subskills. However, it seems to me that things should still work out to be linear with no "breakpoint". Crit will just be slightly better for overall DPS than a damage increase of the same percentage. For instance say lightning makes up 10% of a sorcerer's damage (just to throw a number out there), if they have the 250% crit subskill, you could essentially look at it as if they crit at 205% always for figuring out overall DPS. That would mean a 1% damage increase would be a 1% overall DPS increase, while a 1% crit increase would be an increase of about 1.05% to overall DPS. I still don't see where a breakpoint could be introduced unless I'm still missing something.

On a related note, almost every damaging skill says +extra damage on crit, but a few don't (time shift for instance). If those skills can't crit and they are a part of your rotation, then that could swing things back in favor of damage over crit for overall DPS. Not sure if they don't actually crit though or if they just have incomplete descriptions, which wouldn't surprise me in a STS game

[CosmoxKramer]

i'm questioning if an AA crit is even 200% as you would think. If you go out an test it an AA crit seems more like 150% damage. Only Skills seems to crit at 200% or higher with skill upgrades.

For crit in the calculation you can do DPS * (1+ (Crit% * CritDam%)). Or for skills you can do the same, but it's not really damage per sec because of cooldowns, but you can you took 1000 fireballs, the average damager per fireball would work out to the Avg(min-max skill damage)*(1+(Crit%*CritDam%)).

[CosmoxKramer]

for giggles, i made a little DPS calculator in Excel. it handles 4 offensive spells and adds together your DPS*crit and through a priority system you can set your 4 skills, their damage and critdam% to randomize damage*crit of skills. Add them together and you get the Perfect world DPS. It doesn't have miss%, Boss Dodge%, Armor Reduction %, but you would be comparing apples to apples. The only place it comes into effect is the Accuracy Upgrade for Aimed Shot, De-buffs, etc (all future upgrades). Besides lacking the ability to use de-buff or buff abilities it works fine. I did mention some upgrades i can do, but i need to wait for PVP to come out to get de-buff timers. Some of the other updates can be done like dealing with buffs, but i just put this together in an hour or 2. Also, it's based on 1000 seconds worth of skill damage to calculate your Skill DPS. Obviously most fights aren't that long (besides Bael pre-21) so a shorter window just makes for larger Deviation in DPS. This is to give you the avg DPS over a prolonged period vs. a single target.

If you find bugs when typing in stuff let me know

Download my Google Doc Spreadsheet (in my signature and below) and add in your data into the Orange Cells


<edit>I doesn't work on charging skills either, but I think besides the stun or -hit% charge abilities I don't think it's worth charging for a second because. 10 damage /sec DoT on a boss isn't worth it when spells hit for 200+.

<<edit>> seems that the GCD is different for different spells, so right now this is best for those spells with the very fast GCD, like a Sorc.