Blinded by dps

[Lesmiserables]

Hey its possible as i myself can personally take him down in less than 40-50sec or so .

Pics or it didn't happen.

[azefekie]

It's probably because that's what was brought up?.... Wanna talk about warriors? I'll start it, warriors are useless meat bags.

i saw mostly on bout socerer

[azefekie]

just because you can't do it doesn't mean it can't happen. lol @ pics or it didn't happen. rush and i do it consistently at 50- 58 secs.

Pics or it didn't happen.

[Enisceloz]

It's probably because that's what was brought up?.... Wanna talk about warriors? I'll start it, warriors are useless meat bags.

Take that back you mofo lol!!!!

[azefekie]

Sorry dude I can't, it's the next topic here lol.

Take that back you mofo lol!!!!

[Limsi]

Again, let's try to refrain from being rude to others. There's no point that we post these replies if it would not contribute to the main purpose of the thread.

[azefekie]

We know each other...relax...take a deep breath..count back from 10 mom. doesn't matter where the thread goes as long as it's constructive...your post..not constructive. neither is this...look what you've done!

Again, let's try to refrain from being rude to others. There's no point that we post these replies if it would not contribute to the main purpose of the thread.

[Limsi]

Goodluck to you

[crazyliketat]

With Les's dmge and dps I don't see y not.. before at lvl 16 arqy did 45 secs wid elixers.. and I did 48 without.. mm idk now tho.. coz I think I sukk now on stats.. :/

IGN: Dervy

[nicoB]

I can personally confirm that Rush has awsome damage stats. Him and I did some elite Jarl runs last night, just the 2 of us with no others in the party. And we usually beat him before the clock on our run reached 1:45, and sometimes as soon as 1:15. Normally when I run with a whole party of 4 it takes 2:30-3:00. He chops down the boss faster than most groups are able to. If we had a couple other good players added to the group we could probably beat Jarl in well less than a minute.

Did jarl with all dps rogues in 54s. only skills that were used we're shadow veil and razor sheild...i think it would of taken longer if we spamed skills more than the main attack

[GoodSyntax]

Now, forgive me for jumping in because my math and theory may be way off base, but here is how it see it.

Rather than look at DPS, I would look towards total damage output in a minute - which includes damage via skill and auto combined.

So, knowing that everything is based on the Damage stat, factor in an attack speed (which we must derive by taking Damage/DPS). The Bonus Damage is used to calculate what the additional critical damage will be when your attack or skill crits (unless overridden by the skill - such as 250% for Aimed Shot).

So, given the above, which is a gross oversimplification of the actual variables involved (and not to mention that I need to do a lot of testing to verify - I only took a look at a couple of items in my inventory) here is what I calculate:

Lv 16 Mighty Lifethief of Potency Equipped on my Rogue

Damage: 77.3
Bonus Dmg: 181%
DPS: 139.1

Shadow Piercer Damage: 105-131
Noxious Bolt: 105-131
Aimed Shot: 136-170
Shadow Storm Shot: 89-111

Calculated weapon speed: 0.555715 (Damage divided by DPS)
Calculated Damage Fractions of Skills: (Min Fraction = Skill Min Damage/Damage, Max Fraction = Skill Max Damage/Damage)

Shadow Piercer: 1.358344 - 1.69496
Noxious Bolt: 1.358344 - 1.69496
Aimed Shot: 1.759379 - 2.199224
Shadow Storm Shot: 1.151358 - 1.435964

The cooldown times for the skills as follows:

Shadow Piercer: 2
Noxious Bolt: 2
Aimed Shot: 2
Shadow Storm Shot: 5


With all that - not including other variables, which I know are also present, such as poison damage, pet damage, AoE damage, we can calculate the total single target damage output in a minute.

To keep things simple, let's exclude critical damage, because the calculations get a bit more complex as we have to determine the number of attacks per minute for each skill and auto, get the crit percentage add in the Bonus Damage multiplier and calculate the values with crit included.

So, without crit and assuming single target damage here is what I calculate with my Daggers:

Shadow Piercer:
- Attacks/minute: 30
- Min Damage/minute: 3150 (105*30)
- Max Damage/minute: 3930 (131*30)

Noxious Bolt:
- Attacks/minute: 30
- Min Damage/minute: 3150 (105*30)
- Max Damage/minute: 3930 (131*30)

Aimed Shot:
- Attacks/minute: 30
- Min Damage/minute: 4080 (136*30)
- Max Damage/minute: 5100 (170*30)

Shadow Storm Shot:
- Attacks/minute: 12
- Min Damage/minute: 1068 (89*30)
- Max Damage/minute: 1332 (111*30)

Auto Attack:
- Attacks/minute: ~108 ([Damage/DPS]*60)
- Damage/minute: 8346 (DPS*60)


So, total damage output per minute ranges from 19,794 - 22,638

Unfortunately, I could not get a decent bow that offers more damage than my daggers, but the point is that 42% of your total damage output potential comes from auto attack.

For PvE mobs, I would venture to say that total damage output outweighs your base damage stat. For bosses, and PvP, damage becomes the primary factor of success because you are looking to maximize damage output in a 10-12 second window. In that instance, higher base damage from a good bow becomes more important because your skills are simply a multiplier of your base damage. In the case of Aimed Shot, a +8 damage bow would actually yield +20 damage per critical hit (250%)...so in the course of 12 seconds, aimed shot with a +8 bow would actually deliver up to +120 more damage than a dagger. But in the long run, such as dealing with mobs, total damage output (AKA DPS) would be better as you can take down more targets faster.

Best bet, get a good dagger to deal with mobs, and a good bow for PvP and Boss killing.

[moomookau]

so I bought a L21 Frost Heart of Lethality to test. Let's just say I would rather stick to auto attacking with my agile lifethief. I'm not even using agile lifethief of potency but the cheaper agile lifethief of force.

How many attack skills do rogues have that higher damage is needed?

How I do bosses are basically by dropping smoke, aimed shot without charging and spamming auto attack. Rinse and repeat.

[Lesmiserables]

+1 i agree , spamming auto attacks in-between skills gives you much higher dmg output rather than waiting for skills to cooldown , and basically i have seen crits by my ALP 21 doing 1k for normal hits , so i think auto-atk in between skills are really important .

Now, forgive me for jumping in because my math and theory may be way off base, but here is how it see it.

Rather than look at DPS, I would look towards total damage output in a minute - which includes damage via skill and auto combined.

So, knowing that everything is based on the Damage stat, factor in an attack speed (which we must derive by taking Damage/DPS). The Bonus Damage is used to calculate what the additional critical damage will be when your attack or skill crits (unless overridden by the skill - such as 250% for Aimed Shot).

So, given the above, which is a gross oversimplification of the actual variables involved (and not to mention that I need to do a lot of testing to verify - I only took a look at a couple of items in my inventory) here is what I calculate:

Lv 16 Mighty Lifethief of Potency Equipped on my Rogue

Damage: 77.3
Bonus Dmg: 181%
DPS: 139.1

Shadow Piercer Damage: 105-131
Noxious Bolt: 105-131
Aimed Shot: 136-170
Shadow Storm Shot: 89-111

Calculated weapon speed: 0.555715 (Damage divided by DPS)
Calculated Damage Fractions of Skills: (Min Fraction = Skill Min Damage/Damage, Max Fraction = Skill Max Damage/Damage)

Shadow Piercer: 1.358344 - 1.69496
Noxious Bolt: 1.358344 - 1.69496
Aimed Shot: 1.759379 - 2.199224
Shadow Storm Shot: 1.151358 - 1.435964

The cooldown times for the skills as follows:

Shadow Piercer: 2
Noxious Bolt: 2
Aimed Shot: 2
Shadow Storm Shot: 5


With all that - not including other variables, which I know are also present, such as poison damage, pet damage, AoE damage, we can calculate the total single target damage output in a minute.

To keep things simple, let's exclude critical damage, because the calculations get a bit more complex as we have to determine the number of attacks per minute for each skill and auto, get the crit percentage add in the Bonus Damage multiplier and calculate the values with crit included.

So, without crit and assuming single target damage here is what I calculate with my Daggers:

Shadow Piercer:
- Attacks/minute: 30
- Min Damage/minute: 3150 (105*30)
- Max Damage/minute: 3930 (131*30)

Noxious Bolt:
- Attacks/minute: 30
- Min Damage/minute: 3150 (105*30)
- Max Damage/minute: 3930 (131*30)

Aimed Shot:
- Attacks/minute: 30
- Min Damage/minute: 4080 (136*30)
- Max Damage/minute: 5100 (170*30)

Shadow Storm Shot:
- Attacks/minute: 12
- Min Damage/minute: 1068 (89*30)
- Max Damage/minute: 1332 (111*30)

Auto Attack:
- Attacks/minute: ~108 ([Damage/DPS]*60)
- Damage/minute: 8346 (DPS*60)


So, total damage output per minute ranges from 19,794 - 22,638

Unfortunately, I could not get a decent bow that offers more damage than my daggers, but the point is that 42% of your total damage output potential comes from auto attack.

For PvE mobs, I would venture to say that total damage output outweighs your base damage stat. For bosses, and PvP, damage becomes the primary factor of success because you are looking to maximize damage output in a 10-12 second window. In that instance, higher base damage from a good bow becomes more important because your skills are simply a multiplier of your base damage. In the case of Aimed Shot, a +8 damage bow would actually yield +20 damage per critical hit (250%)...so in the course of 12 seconds, aimed shot with a +8 bow would actually deliver up to +120 more damage than a dagger. But in the long run, such as dealing with mobs, total damage output (AKA DPS) would be better as you can take down more targets faster.

Best bet, get a good dagger to deal with mobs, and a good bow for PvP and Boss killing.

[parnasofication]

Been wondering about this, does movement speed affect attack speed/dps? (i know it doesn't show in stats) i've been trying to test it with my warrior, he seems to attack faster..but the speed increase seems so low to a warrior cause of a low base attack speed, that maybe i'm just imagining it. Any experience or input from rogues with alp?

[Lesmiserables]

Well i dont think i atk faster with the 25% speed elixir so i doubt u will atk faster lol , its all in ur mind dude hehe .

Been wondering about this, does movement speed affect attack speed/dps? (i know it doesn't show in stats) i've been trying to test it with my warrior, he seems to attack faster..but the speed increase seems so low to a warrior cause of a low base attack speed, that maybe i'm just imagining it. Any experience or input from rogues with alp?

[Royce]

The Bonus Damage is used to calculate what the additional critical damage will be when your attack or skill crits (unless overridden by the skill - such as 250% for Aimed Shot).

Bonus Damage is just your primary attribute's contribution to your damage. Crits are 200% unless otherwise stated (like the 250% lightning skill) I believe.

[Energizeric]

Yes, critical hits are 200% of damage, unless otherwise stated, like in the case of Lightning Strike (assuming you have the upgrade).

[Aeoros]

Finally, someone who is actually doing a decent bit of theorycrafting...
Before, all I saw on these forums was either incorrect statements and flawed logic, or generic statements, which might be helpful for the passing noob, but don't really help the understanding of anything else (On the rogue and general forums anyway, I don't delve as much into the other class' forums)
A few things though..

Using lifethief, I think the attack rate is actually 0.55.... or 5/9 secs? Gives rise to 1.8 attacks/sec, but doesnt really change your number of attacks per min. Would be useful if these figures were released to the public instead of testers putting forward numbers.

I've also heard alot of differing opinions on Bonus Damage.. I was always under the impression that [DMG]=[BONUS DMG]x[BASE DMG], where base dmg is the sum of all the dmg from your equips. From the figures I was chucking around, that seemed to be the case, but my numbers were always off by a tiny fraction... like... up to 2 DMG over the range of 300ish dex. It's not much in the grand scheme of things, but enough to warrant that it's not a rounding error. Possibly dex also adds a tiny tiny fraction to base dmg as well as 2 dex giving 1 bonus dmg? But this is something I have to look into a bit more. The small differences are driving me crazy.

The final thing is that weapon mechanics of specific weapons seem to affect how much dps it actually does. The classic case (for a rogue) is the comparison between a Heartseeker and a Lifethief. After the DPS modification, a Heartseeker has the same damage and DPS as a Lifethief, yet there is a massive difference in actual damage output.. and I'm talking a significant amount... at least 150%. That puts even less weight on the DPS and damage stats altogether, unless it's a comparison between two weapons of the same type.

But yeh, there are alot of hidden stats and factors influencing what we see on the stat page and even more influecing the actual damage output. Fun testing it though =D

Now, forgive me for jumping in because my math and theory may be way off base, but here is how it see it.

Rather than look at DPS, I would look towards total damage output in a minute - which includes damage via skill and auto combined.

So, knowing that everything is based on the Damage stat, factor in an attack speed (which we must derive by taking Damage/DPS). The Bonus Damage is used to calculate what the additional critical damage will be when your attack or skill crits (unless overridden by the skill - such as 250% for Aimed Shot).

So, given the above, which is a gross oversimplification of the actual variables involved (and not to mention that I need to do a lot of testing to verify - I only took a look at a couple of items in my inventory) here is what I calculate:

Lv 16 Mighty Lifethief of Potency Equipped on my Rogue

Damage: 77.3
Bonus Dmg: 181%
DPS: 139.1

Shadow Piercer Damage: 105-131
Noxious Bolt: 105-131
Aimed Shot: 136-170
Shadow Storm Shot: 89-111

Calculated weapon speed: 0.555715 (Damage divided by DPS)
Calculated Damage Fractions of Skills: (Min Fraction = Skill Min Damage/Damage, Max Fraction = Skill Max Damage/Damage)

Shadow Piercer: 1.358344 - 1.69496
Noxious Bolt: 1.358344 - 1.69496
Aimed Shot: 1.759379 - 2.199224
Shadow Storm Shot: 1.151358 - 1.435964

The cooldown times for the skills as follows:

Shadow Piercer: 2
Noxious Bolt: 2
Aimed Shot: 2
Shadow Storm Shot: 5


With all that - not including other variables, which I know are also present, such as poison damage, pet damage, AoE damage, we can calculate the total single target damage output in a minute.

To keep things simple, let's exclude critical damage, because the calculations get a bit more complex as we have to determine the number of attacks per minute for each skill and auto, get the crit percentage add in the Bonus Damage multiplier and calculate the values with crit included.

So, without crit and assuming single target damage here is what I calculate with my Daggers:

Shadow Piercer:
- Attacks/minute: 30
- Min Damage/minute: 3150 (105*30)
- Max Damage/minute: 3930 (131*30)

Noxious Bolt:
- Attacks/minute: 30
- Min Damage/minute: 3150 (105*30)
- Max Damage/minute: 3930 (131*30)

Aimed Shot:
- Attacks/minute: 30
- Min Damage/minute: 4080 (136*30)
- Max Damage/minute: 5100 (170*30)

Shadow Storm Shot:
- Attacks/minute: 12
- Min Damage/minute: 1068 (89*30)
- Max Damage/minute: 1332 (111*30)

Auto Attack:
- Attacks/minute: ~108 ([Damage/DPS]*60)
- Damage/minute: 8346 (DPS*60)


So, total damage output per minute ranges from 19,794 - 22,638

Unfortunately, I could not get a decent bow that offers more damage than my daggers, but the point is that 42% of your total damage output potential comes from auto attack.

For PvE mobs, I would venture to say that total damage output outweighs your base damage stat. For bosses, and PvP, damage becomes the primary factor of success because you are looking to maximize damage output in a 10-12 second window. In that instance, higher base damage from a good bow becomes more important because your skills are simply a multiplier of your base damage. In the case of Aimed Shot, a +8 damage bow would actually yield +20 damage per critical hit (250%)...so in the course of 12 seconds, aimed shot with a +8 bow would actually deliver up to +120 more damage than a dagger. But in the long run, such as dealing with mobs, total damage output (AKA DPS) would be better as you can take down more targets faster.

Best bet, get a good dagger to deal with mobs, and a good bow for PvP and Boss killing.

[Delirium]

I can personally confirm that Rush has awsome damage stats. Him and I did some elite Jarl runs last night, just the 2 of us with no others in the party. And we usually beat him before the clock on our run reached 1:45, and sometimes as soon as 1:15. Normally when I run with a whole party of 4 it takes 2:30-3:00. He chops down the boss faster than most groups are able to. If we had a couple other good players added to the group we could probably beat Jarl in well less than a minute.

?

Myself (on my mage) and 1 rogue from my guild do elite jarl in sub-50s easily.. and I've never one time had a public jarl run last over 2 minutes.

I've watched primaeva test his damage theories based on how fast a boss goes down on the forums since AL started, and I've copied/tested those builds on my own as well.. he's completely right. DPS is very important (and yes, so is your actual damage). I constantly spam auto attack on all 3 of my toons (in between skill uses) and my kill time for bosses is noticeably slower when I don't. When I was leveling and had a lower flamestrike, I would use kelvin's gun because I was using all AoE skills in the tombs and I killed much faster because I had higher damage. HOWEVER, as soon as I dropped 2 of those AoE skills for heal and another bossing skill, DPS became the far superior focus. As a mage now, it doesn't really matter as much because the damage on my flamestrike is still as high as any gun and obviously it's DPS is the best for a mage, but on my rogue, AA accounts for much more than 50% of my attacks.. why would I NOT focus on DPS? Anyone who sacrifices 50dps for a weapon that gives you 30 more damage per skill cast is mad unless their build consists of 4 attack skills and no cool-down time.

You guys can theorycraft all you want and assume that you know everything there is to know about the damage mechanics of this game, but I as well as others have actually tested this.. the fact that you're impressed about 1:15 jarl runs only proves it even further. I've personally seen a rogue solo elite jarl in 45 seconds and he wasn't using some high damage daggers.. he was using high DPS daggers.

It's pretty annoying to see some of you dismiss what prima has to say so quickly, especially since he spends so much time personally testing all of this. Not a big deal I guess.. less competition. You go have fun with your higher damage per hit and we'll enjoy killing bosses faster =)

..and I love how you say "gj wasting 2m" or whatever.. like PvE is suddenly going to disappear when PvP comes out? nobody knows how PvP is going to work anyways, and I'm sure there will be new weapons by then anyways.

[Limsi]

I've managed to kill Jarl together with a warrior for an average of 56-1:05 seconds while using ALP, which is a DPS sided weapon. In my opinion, dishing out normal attacks while waiting for skill to cool down really matters.


Invite me Energizeric, let's do several runs and I'll be happy to show