Much needed PvP changes and Ideas

[Muzzling]

There’s a few different topics I want to discuss.

1. Bear needs a buff at endgame, not a str set buff, it genuinely needs an armor or health buff, bears die quicker than birds in the current meta and are basically unplayable. This sucks for people that spent 10+ years playing bear class. Im a mage main, but in PvP I notice it’s 95% mages or birds only, this equates to a dull and repetitive PvP experience. I think buffing bear would bring back a good amount of players and also make PvP feel a lot more dynamic and fun for everyone.

2. The cost of entry for 115 pvp is too high, granted for skilled and experienced players an uncrafted set CAN work, but it is still very difficult to overcome the stat differences between crafted and uncrafted. I think this detours a lot of players that maybe haven’t spent a lot of time pvping from ever even trying it. Crafted sets as it sits cost around 700m, this inadvertently causes PvP to be only accessible to the rich players of the game. I notice that currently 115 PvP is the same 15-20 players and hardly see anyone new join a game. In my opinion as someone that owns a crafted set. I don’t think there should be a stat difference in pvp. This will allow almost all players to have a fair chance in pvp instead of never being able to step foot in arena.

3. I also wanted to mention bringing back honor arena, but with a bit of a twist if possible. I always hear (and agree with) players that talk about how good the old caps were, particularly 56,66,71,76 etc. so maybe it’s possible to release honor sets and honor maps for each of these old level caps, the sets will have the same exact stats as the original sets when those caps were active. But would be playable at 115. For example, a level 115 player can put on a L76 honor set and host a specific L76 honor arena where only other L76 honor sets can join. I also encourage honor CTF maps. This would bring back a lot of OG players that want that nostalgic feel from their favorite cap.

4. With the return of honor or maybe the balancing of bear class, I think it would be awesome to start doing some PvP events. I remember a few of these happening a long time ago but haven’t had anything since. This would encourage more players to jump into arena or CTF and who knows, maybe they discover they like PvP after all but have never tried it before because of the imbalances and set differences. I’ve always only played this game for its PvP, but right now it’s the same 20 players repetitively. I’m hoping something can be done that can somewhat revive the PvP content side of the game. I strongly believe if previous caps stats were added to honor sets that would help do the trick.

[oreo123]

I agree to all this. Bringing back tournaments and nerfing mythic crafted bonus sets would make things pop off and help so much.

[Underpowerful]

Great post, Muzzling! Very well put. I agree with everything said, and would like to highlight the importance of a bear buff. Rhino and bear (at L115) need a significant buff. My suggestion for bear(open to comments) would be to add an additional 20% armor (40% total) to the armor buff at L12. Bear's dmg is actually decent at 115, but the survivability is not nearly enough to make up for the lack of ranged skills. I think rhino is in a similar position.

Big +1 for the return of honor pvp and additional levels of honor sets. Honor was perhaps the greatest addition to pvp ever seen. I think a return of honor and addition of lower lvl honor sets would result in a massive uptick of player count and activity.

[MageFFA]

I see 3 possible ways of making bear a viable class. The first would come by converting Iron Blood from an Armor buff into a Damage Reduction buff with lower duration and cooldown. The problem with this is the fact that this game has an open gear use system. Majority of bears will abuse dex sets if this was to happen.

The 2nd idea is to create an Arcane Longsword/Axe that grants damage reduction for 10 seconds. This should theoretically be an item spammed by Foxes, Bears, and Rhinos which so happens to be the least played classes in 115.

The 3rd possible way is to finally create Ultimate Abilities. This concept already exists in AL so it should be easy to port over to PL.

[MageFFA]

Fixing honor was something that was supposed to happen years ago. Cinco said himself that he’d fix L30 honor sets last week spoke in the community discord. That was around 4+ years ago. Last update on a possible honor change was through forums when cinco made a poll asking if we’d want procs added to the weapons. The community said no, foolish.

To be honest custom created honor sets will be a much better option to go for than just porting over sets that already exists. You have to remember that the majority of Dex sets in this game are completely unplayable after having their Hit, Dodge, Damage, and Armor gutted in the 2016/2017 patch notes. If Birds and Foxes are to be locked behind Dex exclusively they will suffer greatly. We need an entire patch dedicated to honor where we all try and figure out how to rework it at this point.

[Imawolve]

1: agree, bear (and ur team) is just dead if it misses pull and when it hits pull ur entire team is dead, thats been its only use for how 115 is structured, it could get a sizeable hp buff to reduce the punishment for players dodging beckon, this would make comps feel more like 3v3 than 3v2 whenever a bear shows up (fox also has this same issue w pull interactions deciding which team dies)

2: I and a few others really want for the tinker bonus to be removed from pvp entirely, as mythic sets are the same as elite sets since there’s no procs from armor etc those are pve only so the same should be applied to tinker, this would allow all players to play as elites are only a 5% difference or so from mythic sets without tinker, tinker is just incredibly broken for pvp and if ur buying a set u need to buy tinker or its just a glorified elite set

3+4: idk how to balance honor currently with mage being given 3 incredible armor buffs, it would be nice to see 110 regular honor come back (idk why they locked it to elite honor when everyone wanted regular honor without elites) but classes like mage are still too strong and would need balancing which we know the devs bias mage so heavily so it’s very unlikely we’ll ever get a honor level that isn’t heavy mage dominated unless they buff fox and bird to keep them in check

Overall good post we need more community discussion about pvp fixes, they left the pvp in such a bad state with all the past nerfs buffs and event gear that it’s just so difficult to bring it back to what it was, the damage reduction was a nice step forward but we need more

[Muzzling]

Love the feedback, I agree with a lot of what you guys are saying. I think giving bear an additional 20-40% armor as a buff is a good start and I for one would love that change to come ASAP.

Fox is a hard class to evaluate, here’s why. In ffa Fox is able to fly around the map and nuke mages before they even get 2 skills off, this is very evident when the tree glitch is also being used. A point in going to bring up later about mage heal will be an inadvertent fox buff. Fox does struggle a lot against birds. I think this is due to the very high dodge at 115. The only way to fix the dodge without ruining pvp would be to either nerf damage or increase armor at the same time the dodge nerf occurs. Otherwise people would die in 3 skills and we’d be back here complaining.

Mage heal is a big topic as well, I for one do not like the mechanic of a heal buff, reason being is it messes up the skill based heal timing of being freed from ice, root, or hs. Using heal as a buff then not having it to counter frost is a bad mechanic. But if this was removed mages would be terrible. Especially if paired with a dodge reduction. I also notice that the healing effect only works the first and third time it is used if you are spamming it, this is because there’s a regen stage, regen stage has to be completed before your able to heal again. This is hard because you only get 1.6k health from heal + around 600 from the regen. But at 115 an auto from weapon alone negates this. So if you remove armor buff from heal. Mages need a significant heal buff, especially considering the health pool is nearly 10k. A 1.6k heal doesn’t even feel like mage anymore. But like I said I agree with removing the buff from heal in PvP. If the armor buff is removed from heal I hope to get a heal rework, that gets rid of the health regen phase and heals for 3.5-4k each time you heal. This would make it feel more like mage used to feel.

[Muzzling]

Wanted to also mention the dodge pandemic. We all can agree dodge at 115 is ABSURD. But on the other hand doing a huge dodge nerf would make all classes die almost immediately and it’d be a battle of who has the better connection and longest ranged weapon. So my idea would be to nerf dodge and buff armor at the same time. This would be much better for all classes. Here’s a scenario, a bird is coming at you and you use fire to kite him, he dodges this your immediately dead, I’d much rather my fire land but do less damage. At this point it’s about the mechanic value your skills bring to the game. Skills that complete combos getting dodges hurts too much. Same goes for fox pull, bird repulse, bear beckon, we’d rather these skills land and do less damage than get dodged. This would take a good amount of luck and rng out of PvP which everyone can agree we need.

[oreo123]

Yeah dodge is just ridiculous and maybe nerfing mythic sets so that it's -15 dodge for mage and for bird -10/15 but also reducing dodge buff to where its reasonable enough. Just need it balanced please.

[playaone]

Yes we need these changes!!!

[Imawolve]

Love the feedback, I agree with a lot of what you guys are saying. I think giving bear an additional 20-40% armor as a buff is a good start and I for one would love that change to come ASAP.

Fox is a hard class to evaluate, here’s why. In ffa Fox is able to fly around the map and nuke mages before they even get 2 skills off, this is very evident when the tree glitch is also being used. A point in going to bring up later about mage heal will be an inadvertent fox buff. Fox does struggle a lot against birds. I think this is due to the very high dodge at 115. The only way to fix the dodge without ruining pvp would be to either nerf damage or increase armor at the same time the dodge nerf occurs. Otherwise people would die in 3 skills and we’d be back here complaining.

Mage heal is a big topic as well, I for one do not like the mechanic of a heal buff, reason being is it messes up the skill based heal timing of being freed from ice, root, or hs. Using heal as a buff then not having it to counter frost is a bad mechanic. But if this was removed mages would be terrible. Especially if paired with a dodge reduction. I also notice that the healing effect only works the first and third time it is used if you are spamming it, this is because there’s a regen stage, regen stage has to be completed before your able to heal again. This is hard because you only get 1.6k health from heal + around 600 from the regen. But at 115 an auto from weapon alone negates this. So if you remove armor buff from heal. Mages need a significant heal buff, especially considering the health pool is nearly 10k. A 1.6k heal doesn’t even feel like mage anymore. But like I said I agree with removing the buff from heal in PvP. If the armor buff is removed from heal I hope to get a heal rework, that gets rid of the health regen phase and heals for 3.5-4k each time you heal. This would make it feel more like mage used to feel.

Fox just mainly struggles from having zero ranged capabilities and no reliable combo damage (the combo for fox is bugged somewhat so it’s a 60% then a 30% to fully proc this counts dodge and it’s personal hit rate of 60% built into hamstring with which is a close range skill so gl trying to get in there before scream blast or ice fire) every class struggles to mage in 115 rn because of combo damage and the armor on heal, again fox should counter mage the same way bear/rhino should and does counter fox in most modes (115 is just really sloppy so it’s near impossible to balance)
I have countless interactions fighting mages where I sink 7 skills into them and I die in 2-3 skills, many people watch this happen to me daily, this happens to other classes as well, mage just needs a huge nerf without putting it where it was during 110 myth pvp, currently ur expected to combo + nuke faster than a mage can ice fire + autos finish the job, luck ofc changes it a bit but mage consistently wins majority of interactions like this
A dodge nerf as well just completely removes fox’s survivability as dodge (an rng stat) is more than half its survivability so it would need armor buff to compensate (quick statement that I’ve never 3 shot anyone since the global damage nerf unless i have buff and gear advantage in the moment with combo needing to hit, usually I need to hit 4-5 skills before I get dropped in 2-3 which are almost always combos)

Fox ideally requires poison darts range increase to 12m and to make hamstring 100% proc at level 12 and give it a damage stat similar to shred (yes hamstring does not have a damage stat) it’s near impossible to trigger combo on someone with it being locked to 60% so fox just has no access to the kind of dps every other class has, which even if it does proc hamstring doesn’t have a damage stat so it won’t even hit as hard as anyone else’s
Additionally move shred to -20% armor rn it’s a flat number below 150 which does nothing against 115 gear (bird has break at -20% which is bugged as well)

As for mage, it’s a support role it shouldn’t be meta for tank sustain and dps all at once, removing the heal proc is needed, but heal shouldn’t be doing 1 small burst and then tiny bits of regen so I agree that needs to just be removed and turned into what heal feels like in every other level of pvp, this allows for mages to be squishier as well because now their heal works the way it should and they can focus on their designed role

[MageFFA]

Would be better if we just buffed dodge debuffs. It’s important to remember that not all classes are created equal. Archer would never legitimately beat a mage fairly as long as they continue to have 2 heals, a mana shield, and a 12 meter pushback that is also the fastest animation effect in the game. Blind and dodge are the only things that even out the odds and one of them has not worked in years.

[MageFFA]

We really need a massive balance patch in this game. Last one was like 2016.

[Wofer]

+1 Completly agree with Muzzling and MageFFA
the 76 pvp was the best I ever played, that level have the best balance for every class<
and agree with adding new l115 arcane weapons too!

[Muzzling]

@Futumush any plans for any of these changes, atleast bear health/armor buff. And an overall dodge nerf at 115?

[MageFFA]

______Finalized Adjustments______

PASSIVES
Minimum level requirement raised to 80 or disabled in PvP.

______

*[ADJUSTED]_Circle Of Samhain
5% Hit 10 Damage

____

Warrior

Taunt

* Goals: Shift Taunt towards its role as an area-of-effect damage suppress while giving Evade a more meaningful niche.

Changed

* Mana Cost: 0 → 26
* Cooldown: Unchanged (6 seconds)
* Area of Effect: 12 meters → 6 meters
* Removed:
* Self Dodge buff
* Self Strength buff
* Added:
* Enemies hit have their Critical Chance reduced by ~% for 5 seconds.

* ~=-2 (rank 1 through 6) ~=-6 (rank 7 through 12)

* Note: This change is not required. However, PL unfortunately contains many skills that has lost their use over the years. Evade being one such example with the introduction of the dodge cap. It would be better overall to convert Taunt into its own separate ability instead of reworking Evade.

⸻

Crippling Slash

New Effect

* Reduces affected targets Health Regeneration by 4 per rank

⸻

Iron Blood

Adjusted

* Nerfed Armor and Health scaling between Ranks 7-9.
* Rank 11 and 12 Armor and Health scaling increased by 10%.

Updated Ranks

* Rank 7: +50 Armor, +50 Health, +4 Dodge
* Rank 8: +60 Armor, +60 Health, +8 Dodge
* Rank 9: +110 Armor, +110 Health, +10 Dodge
* Rank 10: +200 Armor, +200 Health, +12 Dodge
* Rank 11: +25% Armor, +25% Health, +15 Dodge, +5% Strength
* Rank 12: +60% Armor, +35% Health, +15 Dodge, +10% Strength

Notes
These adjustments are to balance Iron Blood’s effectiveness between levels 65–76, where bear has become too strong compared to other classes.


⸻

Evade

Adjusted

* Increase dodge by +5 per rank


Notes:
Since global Dodge caps were introduced, Warriors have had little reason to invest in Evade. Taunt’s low cooldown and stackable Dodge buff effectively outperformed it in every situation. With Taunt’s defensive capabilities removed, Evade will once again see use.

___

Hell Scream

Adjusted

* Reduce Damage by 5 and Hit Chance by 7 per rank (rank 1-10)
* Reduce Damage by 15% and Hit Chance by 88 (Rank 11)
* Reduce Damage by 20% and Hit Chance by 96 (rank 12)

[MageFFA]

______Finalized Adjustments______

Archer

* Goals: Restore much of the lost damage from over the years. Between direct nerfs in 2013, the stat and item nerfs in 2016, and the introduction of significantly tankier gear, this class has significantly fallen behind compared to the other 4.

______

Focus

Adjusted

* Now grants +6 Hit Chance, +6 Critical Chance, and +6 Damage per rank (1-10)
* Hit Chance +66, Critical Chance +66, +15% Damage(Stacking) (rank 11)
* Hit Chance +72, Critical Chance +72, +20% Damage(Stacking) (rank 12)

Notes
Focus is the only buff in the game that does not give direct damage. As much as I dislike the idea of giving it some form of additive damage, this remains the most solid option that doesn’t require building new items tailored towards archer.

⸻

Evasion

Buffed

* Buffed Evasion between rank 1 through 10
* Level 11 and 12 Evasion left unchanged.

Updated ranks

* Rank 1: +4 Dodge and +5 Armor
* Rank 2: +8 Dodge and +10 Armor
* Rank 3: +12 Dodge and +15 Armor
* Rank 4: +16 Dodge and +20 Armor
* Rank 5: +20 Dodge and +25 Armor
* Rank 6: +24 Dodge and +30 Armor
* Rank 7: +26 Dodge and +40 Armor
* Rank 8: +28 Dodge and +50 Armor
* Rank 9: +30 Dodge and +60 Armor
* Rank 10: +38 Dodge and +70 Armor


Notes
Evasion has fallen behind as survivability requirements have increased thanks to dodge being capped. The extra points of armor will allow archer to survive a few engagements longer.

⸻

Blinding Shot

Adjusted

* Cooldown: Changed (6.5 seconds)
* Reduces the target’s Hit Chance by 8 per rank (rank 1-10)
* Reduces the target’s Hit Chance by 110% and Critical Chance by 25% (rank 11)
* Reduces the target’s Hit Chance by 120% and Critical Chance by 50% (rank 12)

Notes
Blinding Shot has hilariously not worked in 10 straight years. Other classes have multiple stackable Hit debuffs, with rhino being the exception.

[Muzzling]

On the topic of warrior class I agree, a buff to iron blood at level 12 would help bear a lot. There is currently only 1 person that plays bear in endgame PvP and honestly they don’t very much because of how unusable it is. So warrior definitely needs these changes.

As for archer, I respectfully disagree when it comes to endgame PvP. I’ve spent 2 months pvping 115 with and without crafted set, since the damage output changes. Archer is right up there with mage for being the best class. The high dps of talon accompanied by the travel time of archer skills means they can nuke pretty much any class extremely quickly. This is definitely evident when someone takes a revive in ffa and dies 0.1 seconds later before they even get a chance to use a skill.

So I disagree on archer getting buffs at level 12 skills. As for other skill levels I can’t speak on those. But at endgame mage and bird is pretty balanced and the only class lagging behind is warrior, maybe fox and maybe rhino could use some adjustments as well. But archer definitely is not an issue. If you look at pvp right now at end game. It’s predominantly mages and archers. If you buff either one then they will be the only class being played. It already takes a good mage with good ms timing to beat an archer 1v1.

[MageFFA]

Archer doesn’t receive an endgame buff in this potential update. The slight added stats towards Focus and Blind will not be noticeable since Mythic sets has over 100% critical rate and over 200% Hit. This buff only targets archers effectiveness in twink.

[Muzzling]

Archer doesn’t receive an endgame buff in this potential update. The slight added stats towards Focus and Blind will not be noticeable since Mythic sets has over 100% critical rate and over 200% Hit. This buff only targets archers effectiveness in twink.

In that case I fully agree, archer shouldn’t be touched at endgame and @mageffa has more experience than me with twink levels. I also agree that warrior class iron blood skill needs a buff at levels 11 and 12.

30% armor and 30% health buff at levels 12 seems reasonable, this will help warrior survivability and would be a great start to see how it changes the interactions at 115. I think warrior damage is fine. It’s just that they die so fast they don’t get the chance to fully use their skills.