DPS vs Damage - a detailed comparison

[JaytB]

@Cosmo

I'd still go for the gun for 1 reason, range. Your calculation adds the max dps/dmg possible right? That would mean you'd actually have to press the AA button about 2x a second (assuming a .5x wep speed), assuming you never miss once. If this reasoning is correct, I'd have to be: 1. Never missing an AA, which seems nearly impossible if you'll simultaneously have to press your skills 2. Very close to the boss, since the range of AA on a rod is really small (putting your squishy life at serious risk).

So would it be a stretch to say that the practical dps/dmg would be lower in the end? Or am I overlooking something?

Edit: Forgot to mention I'm using Colton more now. It seems that you're correct when you said the dmg output would be higher. I simple tested it with timed runs, and they went a tad faster when using Colton. There are still specific maps that I use Clyde for though, mainly when I need more HP.

[CosmoxKramer]

Yes the calculator is a perfect scenario...a person not physically missing any AA. But the way I see it if u miss some with a Flamestrike (.55 a/s) you may miss a few less with a oracle gun (.89 a/s)

And F me I think I bugged something out with the CDs on the skills...not working now...grr...never ending work..late tonight, ill play with it tomorrow.

[JaytB]

Yes the calculator is a perfect scenario...a person not physically missing any AA. But the way I see it if u miss some with a Flamestrike (.55 a/s) you may miss a few less with a oracle gun (.89 a/s)

And F me I think I bugged something out with the CDs on the skills...not working now...grr...never ending work..late tonight, ill play with it tomorrow.

Haha, I still haven't had the chance to look into your calculator. Family and work keep me very occupied.

But yeah, something doesn't seem right. When I did timed (solo) runs with the flamestrike rod, I was consistently slower as compared to that crystal of force. If I have some spare time during the week/weekend I'll dive into you calculator, maybe we can work out the kinks together

[Energizeric]

Just thought I would ask, but are you accounting for the lightning upgrade that gives 250% crit?

[CosmoxKramer]

yes

[CosmoxKramer]

I also switched in Gale Force for Time Shift
Priority was (weapon, Gale Force, frost, lightning, fire)
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 11.13 crit, Clyde = 371 (10 more dps over TS)

Priority was (weapon, frost, lightning, fire, Gale Force)
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 11.13 crit, Clyde = 375 (14 more dps over TS)

Gale Force does the least net damage per spell cast (including upgrades), so it probably should be be last on priority, but because you can cast it almost 2x Timeshift, it does beat out TS on total DPS by a bit

[JaytB]

I also switched in Gale Force for Time Shift
Priority was (weapon, Gale Force, frost, lightning, fire)
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 11.13 crit, Clyde = 371 (10 more dps over TS)

Priority was (weapon, frost, lightning, fire, Gale Force)
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 11.13 crit, Clyde = 375 (14 more dps over TS)

Gale Force does the least net damage per spell cast (including upgrades), so it probably should be be last on priority, but because you can cast it almost 2x Timeshift, it does beat out TS on total DPS by a bit

Cool, that was the first thing I wanted to test with your calculator LOL! Thanks for doing it for me.

I kind of like gale, it's an easy spell that also does AOE Dmg when charged and doesn't have such a horrible cooldown time as compared to time-shift. Time-shift definitely has some crowd control advantages, but I usually manage to push stray mobs back into position with gale. And of course, who doesn't like to run fast haha. I didn't expect it to actually deal more Dmg as compared to time-shift, makes me all the more happy I got rid of TS to make room for Gale

Looking forward to the results of what Grimm asked you about.

[drgrimmy]

Hey Cosmo, since you seem to like crunching numbers... I think it would be usefull to compare overall dps to a mob of say 5 enemies assuming that the aoe based skills hit all 5 of the enemies and the weapon/non-aoe attacks hit only a single enemy. I think this would be a useful calculation for a tomb running or mob clearing build and would clearly show the superiority of the high damage builds with the rifle.

[CosmoxKramer]

Yep, sounds like fun. I think it would be a matter of multiplying each Skill line by *5. Would you want me to Charge all my skills? I generally charge my skills in W4 clears for the CC, DoTs, etc.

<edit> i guess the damage would be different per mob it hits, but in the long run of averages, i think it would be safe to *5. I may just update the calculator to allow you to select between 1-5 mobs and your Weapon only hits *mob count if you select Charge =yes.

[drgrimmy]

Yep, sounds like fun. I think it would be a matter of multiplying each Skill line by *5. Would you want me to Charge all my skills? I generally charge my skills in W4 clears for the CC, DoTs, etc.

Yes assuming charging all skills, as I think most people tend to charge them for the addded effects/crowd control properties you gain from charging. I would also think no charging on weapon.

[CosmoxKramer]

yep, i don't generally charge the weapon, too slow for little impact (except added stun chance) but it still screws with the stun chance. Plus i Charged damage = to 1.5* normal damage. Hard to test because everything dies so fast. I'll try and test it again on the travelers outpost daily today a few times before making this change.

[CosmoxKramer]

Here is what i got, 5 mobs, 140% crit (except LS 250%)

Priority was (weapon, time shift, frost, fire, gale)
Flamestrike, 204.1 Damage, 9.32% crit, Clyde = 1,165
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 11.13 crit, Clyde = 1,297
Flamestrike, 204.1 Damage, 2.32% crit, Colton = 1,269
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 4.13 crit, Colton = 1,422
I tested these without anything being charged but Time Shift for Countdown of Pain and you only lose 80 dps for Oracle gun and Clyde combo


Priority was (weapon, frost, fire, gale, lightning). Funny thing is with this priority and Charging all skills, but not weapons, you never get to cast Lightning a single time. Obviously over the length of a run, when there is just a mob or 2 left and you don't need to charge you skill you can start popping off the spells.
Flamestrike, 204.1 Damage, 9.32% crit, Clyde = 1,081
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 11.13 crit, Clyde = 1,208
Flamestrike, 204.1 Damage, 2.32% crit, Colton = 1,172
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 4.13 crit, Colton = 1,316

[drgrimmy]

Here is what i got, 5 mobs, 140% crit (except LS 250%)

Priority was (weapon, time shift, frost, fire, gale)
Flamestrike, 204.1 Damage, 9.32% crit, Clyde = 1,165
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 11.13 crit, Clyde = 1,297
Flamestrike, 204.1 Damage, 2.32% crit, Colton = 1,269
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 4.13 crit, Colton = 1,422
I tested these without anything being charged but Time Shift for Countdown of Pain and you only lose 80 dps for Oracle gun and Clyde combo


Priority was (weapon, frost, fire, gale, lightning). Funny thing is with this priority and Charging all skills, but not weapons, you never get to cast Lightning a single time. Obviously over the length of a run, when there is just a mob or 2 left and you don't need to charge you skill you can start popping off the spells.
Flamestrike, 204.1 Damage, 9.32% crit, Clyde = 1,081
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 11.13 crit, Clyde = 1,208
Flamestrike, 204.1 Damage, 2.32% crit, Colton = 1,172
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 4.13 crit, Colton = 1,316

Thanks, great work! Actually I am suprised. I was expecting more than a little bit over a 10% advantage of the rifle over the rod.

Usually with a four offensive skill configuration I have time to charge all of my skills and don't really use the weapon. With the four offensive skill configuration it is probably better to use lightening than the weapon as I would think it would result in significantly better damage. I find that weapon "auto-attack" only really comes in to play when: 1) I am fighting a boss with a 4 offensive skill configuration and I am not charging all of my skills; or 2) I have a 3 offensive skill or less build.

Once again thanks for all the hard work calculating this out, although I have a feeling you enjoy it almost as much as playing the game itself

[Erdnase]

Very nice guide man. But i hate you for making it! lol. Giving away all the good secrets. haha no its really good thx for making

[CosmoxKramer]

I forgot to do "charge" testing before i ran the numbers. They are a bit high probably because i had 1.5*uncharged damage=charged, but it turns out that it is closer to 1.25*.

haha, yes, i do enjoy theorycrafting as much as playing....if i stopped doing this i may be lvl 26 already. But I screw around too much and i'm still 5k away.

What 4 skills do you use, if you don't mind me asking?

[drgrimmy]

I forgot to do "charge" testing before i ran the numbers. They are a bit high probably because i had 1.5*uncharged damage=charged, but it turns out that it is closer to 1.25*.

haha, yes, i do enjoy theorycrafting as much as playing....if i stopped doing this i may be lvl 26 already. But I screw around too much and i'm still 5k away.

What 4 skills do you use, if you don't mind me asking?

Hehe... I change up my build alot, but am currently running with fire, frost, time, life, 5/5 int, 5/5 str. The last time I consistently ran a 4 offensive skill build was before PvP came out with fire, frost, gale and time. Although most people don't like gale, I liked having a full aoe build for mob killing with the speed boost for fast runs (a nice leaderboard running build when mages could still compete). You just have to take care not to be a "scatter bear" (eg push mobs against walls and other objects instead of scattering them with gale - bears from pl know what I am talking about). Other builds I have used alot are: fire, frost, gale and life (seemed somewhat versatile for both PvE and PvP); fire, gale, time, and life (in my early al days); and fire, light, life and shield (although mostly for PvP, also worked suprisingly well for solo w4 runs saving me alot in pots). Many more builds have been tried and discarded

[CosmoxKramer]

i hear ya, i've tried a ton.
I also understood scatter bear. I enjoying playing my bear in PL and knew how to yack towards a wall/corner then take a step and stop them up against that same wall/corner

[Pfurz]

Thank you for this...i made it PDF

[CosmoxKramer]

Hey guys. I after getting a question from Wolfkult (user) on a Warrior forum topic. I went back and was doing some calculations of what your real DPS stat on the avatar page should be when including Crit.

For Example, now my mage is 26 and in my damage/armor type gear i have 216.8 Damage and 3.33% Crit and DPS shows 243.9 with oracle crystal
so my real DPS = Damage * (1+(crit%*critdam%)) * other Dam% * aps (attacks per second). and CritDam from weapons is 130%
216.8*(1+(.0333*1.3))*1*1.125 = 254.45
If i had 5 extra Skill points, should i put them in Crit or Dam%
216.8*(1+(.0833*1.3))*1*1.125 = 270.3
216.8*(1+(.0333*1.3))*1.05*1.125 = 267.2

Woh! so Crit is better than Damage! Not quite, but now why was my calculator showing the opposite. Well 2 things to note:

1. yes, i found an error where i was calculating what the damage of an individual crit was. I accidentally still had the "(1+(crit%" in the formula. Where in turn, i'm not trying to calculate average damage of 1 crit, but needed to just do Damage roll * 130% for weapons or 140% for skills. I'll man up and say sorry!!! SORRY
2. the above averages may be a bit Skewed, because of misses, dodges, and Pure randomness involved in the game. Crits may be higher in some cases, but over the long run, Dam% probably provides a more steady DPS. Makes sense... Plus on an individual weapon/skill calculation of average damage crit may be better, but with varying Critdam% as well, crit doesn't have the same effect overall as straight Dam%. if critdam was indeed 200% damage as the base, then crit would always be > dam%

So i fixed the damage calculation and reran some numbers. This time i'll add i'll show the min-max of the hundred test scenarios for each. 0% passive damage in all of the below. Also, i threw out Flamestrike weapon, because they were still quite a bit lower than the Oracle gun.
Priority was (weapon, time shift, frost, fire, lightning)
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 11.13 crit, Clyde = 376 (363-393)
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 4.13 crit, Colton = 401 (387-415)

Priority was (weapon, frost, lightning, fire, gale).
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 11.13 crit, Clyde = 373 (360-394)
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 4.13 crit, Colton = 396 (381-407)

So, both build are almost equal now, where GF was slightly beter than TS. using your Build, Jaytb, what is better, 5% crit or 5% damage passives.
Priority was (weapon, frost, lightning, fire, gale).
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 16.13 crit, Clyde = 383 (369-401)
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 9.13 crit, Colton = 406 (390-423)
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 11.13 crit, Clyde, 5% dam = 392 (374-409)
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 4.13 crit, Colton, 5% dam = 415 (402-426)

in each case of the =5% passive, your dps goes up 5%. In each case of the +5% crit, your dps goes up just over 2.5%. Lightning was cast 17.5% of total casts at 250% critdam, other skills were 39.8% of the time at 140% critdam, and weapon was the remaining 42.7% at 130%. So add that up (17.5%*250%)+(39.8%*140%)+(42.7*130%) = 155% crit dam weighted average or +55% damage over normal attack. .05 *.55=2.75% which is pretty close to the 2.5% increase. if i had the decimals in the DPS above, that may account for the .25% difference.

So, in the end, crit seems to give about 0.5% dps increase per 1% crit (assuming you have Lightning 250% in your build). Without Lightning it is close to 0.35% dps boost to 1% crit. While Dam% gives you about 1:1 ratio.

[JaytB]

@Cosmo

You remind me of Physiologic. That's a good thing btw

I ran out of thanks again, so I'll give you a virtual thanks here... *thanks*

That dmg calculator gets better every day