Solving Ze Bird Problem

[CrimsonTider]

I usually am leading from the front, I meant the "sitting back" comment figuratively. I get a handful of kills, but it heavily depends on how many birds are in the party and how shameless they are about stealing kills (by that I mean sending a volley of arrows into a mob that was only a hit or two from death, not ganging up on one that's still going strong). I am a pure STR build, because I have 2 other characters that are also mostly STR, and this way I can just buy one set of gear and transfer it between the three accounts as needed.

Just say "no" to pure strength. Yes, it literally makes you a walking tank, but when your hit% is 67, you won't hit Blacksmoke Mountain with a nuke the size of Jupiter. May be one reason you are not seeing your kill count go up (miss miss miss = miss.) Another thing is adding dex will raise damage (as well as hit%) to allow the gain you need. Use just enough strength to equip strength gear and put everything else into dex.

As a pure strength advocate, until bears get a boost in hit%, this is the best build to use.

[whisperwalk]

Actually, bears do. Yes, it is two skills, but when you take into account that taunt can be stacked twice, it gives bears a constant 28 dodge buff, not 20 seconds, constant. Then you can add on the bear's much higher armour buff and offensive buff.



Rhinos have 1 purely defensive skill, stone skin.
The majority of their skills benefit the party they are in:
-Reincarnate: gives minimal buff to entire party in range as well as allowing dead party member to revive near the party.
-Restore: Heals all party member within 8 meters, nice self regen buff, but a party heal in PL is a support skill.
-Brute Force: Minimal party buff of 5 armour, minimal self dodge buff.
-Divine Aura: increases mana regen.
-Summon: A taunt(we will count as half a tank skill), main benefit, however, is an area dodge debuff making pulls much easier for bears.
-Guardian: Negates any negative effects on nearby party members, has decent defensive buff as well.
-Vital Force: Party damage buff along with a self hit buff and minimal critical buff.
After you knock these buffs and party skills out, it's left with 4 short ranged attack skills, two of which seem to be designed for a tank, to use to maintain aggro I guess. The other two are just general aoe damage skills with minor 3 second debuffs.


With a good tank(bear please) in PvE birds do not really need to stay at far ranges, in fact to maximize damage they should be coming into around 8 meter range to land cruel blast, which is the first point where a bear could hit after a missed/dodged beckon or hellscream(rank 9). So 9-12 meter would be the minimized damage zone.
If you want to kill a birds damage at 3 or 4 meters, you better increase hit chance on avian scream and repulse shot.

I dont think you play a rhino, because the 'support' you are talking about is a joke. Jist because something is 'beneficial' doesnt make it a support skill. Given that the 'benefits' are so small, and DEFENSIVE in nature, it is correct to call them pure defensive skills'

Guardian is a 40 armor, 10 dodge TANKING buff with a redundant (see restore) dispel effect on party. Just because it has this extremely situational effect, doesnt suddenly make it a support skill. Guardian has a very long cooldown making it absent when u need it for dispelling.

Brute force with 5 armor "support" - HAHA. Beneficial to party my ***. It is a TANKING skill - for 10 dodge.

Any rhino that puts points into divine aura should be SHOT. So, just forget about it.

Rhino has multiple layers of tanking skills, such as stoneskin, guardian, and brute force. Heal and redemption let them stay alive so that they can tank longer. (Not tank skills, but helpful for tanking).

On balance, Rhino has 5 tank skills (brute force, guardian, stoneskin, summon), 3 support skills (restore, reincarnate, vital force), and 4 attack skills (charge, rhino might, redemption, holy tempest). Therefore, it is more of a tank than a supporter.

And no, i dont think birds need more dmg anywhere bcos they are already landing 1-sec kills. We're trying to nerf birds, after all, and the whole point of a nerf is to make them weaker, not redistribute advantages from one area into another. Its a feature not a bug.

Your whole thesis that nerfs would make birds completely unplayable is based on exageration. Birds will still be very good at pvp, i tell u.

[tHelonestud]

I dont think you play a rhino, because the 'support' you are talking about is a joke.

Any skill with an effect on your team is, whether you like it or not, the definition of a support skill. Now for these tanking skills...
sure, stone skin increases armor
oh wait blessing of vitality increases armour more; mages must be real tanks
guardian does add some more defense...for 8 seconds. I have much better ways to spend skill points.
so brute force is a worthless party buff. I will actually agree with you on this, and it's a reasonable self buff since it does not cancel out vital force, which is much more beneficial to you and your party.
That puts the rhino at 5 party/support skills, which is more than mages.

We're trying to nerf birds, after all, and the whole point of a nerf is to make them weaker, not redistribute advantages from one area into another.

you are the only one saying they need nerfed. Bears and strength mages are just as overpowered because the real problem is not with any class, it is the ridiculously buffed dodge stat.

Its a feature not a bug.

No idea what feature you are talking about. Nerfing? I am not sure that is considered a feature in any way. Really confused on this statement.

Your whole thesis that nerfs would make birds completely unplayable is based on exageration. Birds will still be very good at pvp, i tell u.

Please quote me ever saying this.

[Gragorak]

On balance, Rhino has 5 tank skills (brute force, guardian, stoneskin, summon), 3 support skills (restore, reincarnate, vital force), and 4 attack skills (charge, rhino might, redemption, holy tempest). Therefore, it is more of a tank than a supporter.

Conclusion = rhino is supportive tank.

Your whole thesis that nerfs would make birds completely unplayable is based on exageration. Birds will still be very good at pvp, i tell u.

Birds don't need to be nerfed, they aren't really that OP. What makes them OP in end game is a) lvl 9 skills, b) elite bow, c) unbalanced game mechanics. In lower levels (I'm talking about lvls 22-61 now) they are far from being OP. If birds were nerfed, that would just make mages even more OP in lower levels.

so brute force is a -- terrible self buff since it cancels out vital force

This is actually false information.

[CrimsonTider]

Conclusion = rhino is supportive tank.


Birds don't need to be nerfed, they aren't really that OP. What makes them OP in end game is a) lvl 9 skills, b) elite bow, c) unbalanced game mechanics. In lower levels (I'm talking about lvls 22-61 now) they are far from being OP. If birds were nerfed, that would just make mages even more OP in lower levels.


This is actually false information.

Truth.

[tHelonestud]

This is actually false information.

You are correct, that's what I get for assuming Spacetime has accurate skill descriptions
Speaking of those skills, I'm fairly certain the armour on brute force should rank up with the skill.

[whisperwalk]

I don't see why lower lvls (20-61) are important, since the endgame is Lvl 76. But suppose we take away the bow and nerf bird's Lvl 9 skills, would that end the bird infestation?

As for Brute Force, it should be 40 armor not 5. And Stoneskin should be 120 armor not 48. That would bump armor to +200 which seems about right for surviving the 1-sec combos everyone else is getting.

[whisperwalk]

Any skill with an effect on your team is, whether you like it or not, the definition of a support skill. Now for these tanking skills...
sure, stone skin increases armor
oh wait blessing of vitality increases armour more; mages must be real tanks
guardian does add some more defense...for 8 seconds. I have much better ways to spend skill points.
so brute force is a worthless party buff. I will actually agree with you on this, and it's also a terrible self buff since it cancels out vital force, which is much more beneficial to you and your party.
That puts the rhino at 5 party/support skills, which is more than mages.

I think you just let slip how poor Guardian is as a skill, compared to the nerf-worthy bird Evasion. (And no, there are no 'better ways' to spend those skill points...you'll just end up with 9 unused skill points) So pls tell me once again that birds are "fair and balanced".

How does a bird, which is a damage character, deserve a defence skill stronger than what actual defensive characters get? How does a bird justify such efficient skill point distribution? A fox, for the same 9 points, gets a buff 6 times shorter. A rhino, for 9 points, gets a worse buff 2-3 times shorter. A bear, for 9 points, gets only half the buff and must continually spam the taunt.

Meanwhile a bird, with these 9 points, has finished their "defensive portion" and can put everything else in high damage skills and strong debuffs which they will now use to murder everyone in 1 second.

[tHelonestud]

I think you just let slip how poor Guardian is as a skill, compared to the nerf-worthy bird Evasion. (And no, there are no 'better ways' to spend those skill points...you'll just end up with 9 unused skill points) So pls tell me once again that birds are "fair and balanced".

I didn't 'let slip', I have stated numerous time all over the forums the rhinos are underpowered.
Remind me when I told you the first time, please.
So far you have only proved that birds are more powerful than rhinos and foxes, which I would agree with. They are very underpowered.
When spacetime announced two new classes I knew they would be either quite underpowered or very overpowered.
If you want to talk about how overpowered birds are, please compare them to class that has existed for more than 6 months and has already has its skills tweaked numerous times.

A bear, for 9 points, gets only half the buff and must continually spam the taunt.

half the dodge for an infinitely longer time
that seems much better to me

[Gragorak]

I don't see why lower lvls (20-61) are important, since the endgame is Lvl 76. But suppose we take away the bow and nerf bird's Lvl 9 skills, would that end the bird infestation?

Ever heard of twinking? 90% of pvp happens in other levels than end game. [I know, most of the most skilled players play end game pvp]

But suppose we take away the bow and nerf bird's Lvl 9 skills, would that end the bird infestation?

Reducing skill lvls back to 6 & nerfin' ridiculous elite bow is a good start. Also rebalancing the basic game mechanics (and thus reducing the impact of dodge and luck) would be necessary.

[tHelonestud]

elite bow is really not that bad, it's primarily because the armour has been increasing at far too slow a rate compared to damage. The whole game is now debuffs of hit% and buffs of dodge. This results in damage being all or nothing hit mean they deal no damage, dodge means you take no damage. Obviously dodge buffs need rolled back a lot and not just buffs, dodge stats on gear as well. Also though these 60% hit chance debuffs, cut them down to 20% or so and add a 40% critical chance debuff. Damage would become more reasonable making for longer, more-skill-requiring fights.

The root of your bird 'problem' is this dodge. They should just until they can fix everything, cut the buffs out of the game, and boost base armour by about 20

[Wendellism]

Gonna have to agree with Thelonestud here.

PvP in itself is unbalanced due to dodge based sets. Ever saw a bear with 90+ dodge when fully buffed? It goes to show that should STS continue raising dodge by the next expansion, I'm quite positive bears will be invulnerable for the entire duration of Evasion(unless the developers proves that dodge cap is not at 100%).

Because of dodge, PvP has turned from a game of wits into...... a game of luck. It's either you dodge more than the enemy to kill him; or the opposite. There were rarely anybody I have seen so far that could be considered actual veterans in PvP. No, not at all.

[whisperwalk]

elite bow is really not that bad, it's primarily because the armour has been increasing at far too slow a rate compared to damage. The whole game is now debuffs of hit% and buffs of dodge. This results in damage being all or nothing hit mean they deal no damage, dodge means you take no damage. Obviously dodge buffs need rolled back a lot and not just buffs, dodge stats on gear as well. Also though these 60% hit chance debuffs, cut them down to 20% or so and add a 40% critical chance debuff. Damage would become more reasonable making for longer, more-skill-requiring fights.

The root of your bird 'problem' is this dodge. They should just until they can fix everything, cut the buffs out of the game, and boost base armour by about 20

This is all hypothetical because STS will never do anything that drastic. Rebalancing everything....they might as well create a new game. Oh wait, they already have.

Modestly, bird dodge should be swapped with fox dodge, and we can drop my other two suggestions.

[Wendellism]

This is all hypothetical because STS will never do anything that drastic. Rebalancing everything....they might as well create a new game. Oh wait, they already have.

Modestly, bird dodge should be swapped with fox dodge, and we can drop my other two suggestions.

If that was done, Birds would be the next bunch of players currently demanding a buff.

I'm very sure that had STS did proper planning of those statistics we all toy about whist twinking, nobody would have any complaints save for a few; after all, nobody can stop conflicts.

[Battlegrinder]

This is all hypothetical because STS will never do anything that drastic. Rebalancing everything....they might as well create a new game. Oh wait, they already have.

STS has been pretty good with maintaining game balance. For example, in SL, the Crusade expansion scaled back Commando dodge significantly, and the new weapons from the expansion pushed players to start using class weapons instead of the pistol+shield combo that had been dominating the game.

The problem is, STS tends to re-balance at the launch of the expansion only, and doesn't tinker around with stuff in between caps. They also tend to mostly change things indirectly, by altering the stats given by gear and that kinda thing. I don't know if they've ever done something with the base mechanics (aside from the GCD and other universal changes), or if such a change is warranted, since altering the equipment stats might be able to resolve the situation on its on.

[tHelonestud]

Gonna have to agree with Thelonestud here.

PvP in itself is unbalanced due to dodge based sets. Ever saw a bear with 90+ dodge when fully buffed? It goes to show that should STS continue raising dodge by the next expansion, I'm quite positive bears will be invulnerable for the entire duration of Evasion(unless the developers proves that dodge cap is not at 100%).

Because of dodge, PvP has turned from a game of wits into...... a game of luck. It's either you dodge more than the enemy to kill him; or the opposite. There were rarely anybody I have seen so far that could be considered actual veterans in PvP. No, not at all.

At 100% dodge you actually don't dodge everything; I am not positive on the other factors however.

[joshtheboss]

IMO the real problem with PvP is that everyone has so little HP especially when compared to the damage. For example a pure int mage at 76 only has around 440 HP buffed while for a bird its around 550. But the damage has been increased exponentially so you die very quickly, and this is why dodge is so determining in PvP because when one shot can kill you have to hope the right skills hit thus dodge is a very large factor in PvP.

[tHelonestud]

Everytime you level there should be a like 5 health 1 armour increase in your base stats

[whisperwalk]

IMO the real problem with PvP is that everyone has so little HP especially when compared to the damage. For example a pure int mage at 76 only has around 440 HP buffed while for a bird its around 550. But the damage has been increased exponentially so you die very quickly, and this is why dodge is so determining in PvP because when one shot can kill you have to hope the right skills hit thus dodge is a very large factor in PvP.

Pocket Legends seems to be going for "ultra realism" where a soldier can gain skills, but not exceed natural "species abilities". Therefore, a fresh recruit has the same base hit points as a capped veteran.

Nothing wrong with that approach, except that as levels increase, developers fall into a trap of "upping the difficulty" by only adding monster hp and damage (I'm looking at you, Blacksmoke Mountain). So player damage goes up, too, to deal with the enhanced monsters. Then players carryover these high-dmg moves to PVP to discover everyone dying in a few hits, leading to a "dodge or die" situation...

Put simply, the PVE arms race has ruined PVP.

[Deathofan]

Rhinos have two high armor buffs, two decent dodge buffs, high heal with h/s buff and redemption. Rhinos can take more dmg than any other class (at least in lvls 20-61, i dont know about lvl 9 skills). So no need to cry about hp. I read your guide, and it says you have no points in armor buff. Rhinos are made to tank, and that's actually pretty hard without using armor buff.


Not true. Elite bow set has 153 armor and savage scythe set has 255 armor (+ defensive set bonus, not sure how much it is).

?? 210 elite bow set, 300 scythe set.