Fox/Mage Nerf?

[MageFFA]

PvP will forever be unenjoyable until we all set aside our differences/discord to finally agree on nerfing these classes. There is no reason that birds critical damage and crit in general can be decimated, bears dodge eliminated, and rhinos combo damage/life steal nullified, while foxes can get a 25% damage and 20% dodge increase dispite not needing it in the first place and mages are to be left with the overall most ludicrous stats compared to everyone else. This is a call to all who agree that we have had enough of the deniers who think that these classes are anywhere near balanced.

Dolloway agreed that mages was overall to power, rose agreed that mages critical damage outpaced every other class, Burningdex has officially stopped playing PL because there are no good PvP zones as long as there is no change to the class, and many others who actively support these claims on forum. When your character is dropping 400 critical attacks without 3pc while other classes like bear bird and rhino can't even go past 280 then you know something is wrong. This isn't one stacked fox or a stacked mage, this is EVERYONE who uses the class no matter the gear.

Tell me right here right now that Mage/fox are balanced and in return I'll show you a liar. For now on this thread will be ENTIRELY BASED ON EXPOSING NOT ONLY THE HYPOCRISY OF THE PLAYERS WHO TRY TO DEFEND THESE CLASSES BUT TO ALSO PROVIDE ENOUGH FEEDBACK FOR THE DEVS TO THINK OVER A POSSIBLE PATCH TOWARDS THESE CLASSES.

Foxes are one tapping players in 22 as I'm writing this thread right now, using only pull ham/darts. While mages when above 22 are on par equally with foxes and has the ability to nuke a 22 bear who buffs his armor to 108.A 40 BEAR WITH FULL TANK EQUIPS 3+ YEARS AGO WAS 108 ARMOR IN TOTAL, SO IF MAGES CAN NUKE 108 ARMOR WHAT'S STOPING THEM FROM NUKING 120, CURRENT 40 BEAR ARMOR VALUE WITHOUT AMULETS.This is unacceptable, it's either quickly finish the mage or die half a second later.

While on the other side of the spectrum a fox can still kill you by just dashing alone, keep in mind debuffs are useless now as 6 hs does not nulifiy fox which only makes it even worse. Ontop of the fact that foxes can just buff their hit% up so that they don't have to miss, it's just not right.

Either we nerf these classes or buff the others to make this enjoyable. Thoughts and opinions commented down below.

[Soupah]

PvP will forever be unenjoyable until we all set aside our differences/discord to finally agree on nerfing these classes. There is no reason that birds critical damage and crit in general can be decimated, bears dodge eliminated, and rhinos combo damage/life steal nullified, while foxes can get a 25% damage and 20% dodge increase dispite not needing it in the first place and mages are to be left with the overall most ludicrous stats compared to everyone else. This is a call to all who agree that we have had enough of the deniers who think that these classes are anywhere near balanced.

Dolloway agreed that mages was overall to power, rose agreed that mages critical damage outpaced every other class, Burningdex has officially stopped playing PL because there are no good PvP zones as long as there is no change to the class, and many others who actively support these claims on forum. When your character is dropping 400 critical attacks without 3pc while other classes like bear bird and rhino can't even go past 280 then you know something is wrong. This isn't one stacked fox or a stacked mage, this is EVERYONE who uses the class no matter the gear.

Tell me right here right now that Mage/fox are balanced and in return I'll show you a liar. For now on this thread will be ENTIRELY BASED ON EXPOSING NOT ONLY THE HYPOCRISY OF THE PLAYERS WHO TRY TO DEFEND THESE CLASSES BUT TO ALSO PROVIDE ENOUGH FEEDBACK FOR THE DEVS TO THINK OVER A POSSIBLE PATCH TOWARDS THESE CLASSES.

Foxes are one tapping players in 22 as I'm writing this thread right now, using only pull ham/darts. While mages when above 22 are on par equally with foxes and has the ability to nuke a 22 bear who buffs his armor to 108.A 40 BEAR WITH FULL TANK EQUIPS 3+ YEARS AGO WAS 108 ARMOR IN TOTAL, SO IF MAGES CAN NUKE 108 ARMOR WHAT'S STOPING THEM FROM NUKING 120, CURRENT 40 BEAR ARMOR VALUE WITHOUT AMULETS.This is unacceptable, it's either quickly finish the mage or die half a second later.

While on the other side of the spectrum a fox can still kill you by just dashing alone, keep in mind debuffs are useless now as 6 hs does not nulifiy fox which only makes it even worse. Ontop of the fact that foxes can just buff their hit% up so that they don't have to miss, it's just not right.

Either we nerf these classes or buff the others to make this enjoyable. Thoughts and opinions commented down below.

Shut up and find a different game then


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[MageFFA]

Shut up and find a different game then


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Nice reply. Guessing a player who uses these classes and don't want them to be nerfed?

[Soupah]

Nice reply. Guessing a player who uses these classes and don't want them to be nerfed?

Nah tbh. This game is just broken he constantly tweaks PvP no matter what he does someone’s always gonna complain you nerf foxes and mages people gonna wanna buff em again


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[MageFFA]

Nah tbh. This game is just broken he constantly tweaks PvP no matter what he does someone’s always gonna complain you nerf foxes and mages people gonna wanna buff em again


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Only thing broken about this game bud is mages and foxes. The issue in endgame is simply because of sets tweaked to exploit certain classes the most. While the issue with class specific problems are always consistently the same, 2 classes being far more broken than the other. Enough of the excuse that it's "a stacked mage" or a "geared fox" when you don't even need actual gear to dominate the others in the first place.

Again when your class has the ability to out damage every other class in dps, fox, or pure skill power, mage, you are then left with the predicament we are in now. So who gives a crap about other problems. We are discussing the topic of mages or foxes so feedback on THIS topic will be more helpful than being snobbish.

[Tpfelblatt]

You left out tons of information in your first post, which paints an exaggerated picture of the status quo, whithout illustrating any of the problems in a way that is comprehensible.
Why exactly are they overpowered? What makes them op? What levels are you refering to? Why are they overpowered in those levels? How should they be balanced out?

I know we beat this dead horse over and over again and I don't disagree on some of the points that have been made in those past discussions. Just saying that you presented your case poorly. At the very least link to past discussions or quote them.

[Duckypowerz]

Soooo your talking about pvp under 50 where sets are not really a thing cause after 50 before the 50 stat gun and enchants nothing your saying applied. Granted idrc cause twink pvp is dead and gone after stat guns and enchants came to pl. But really let’s be real your talking about pvp where you now have elite gear which should have never been a thing in low lvl and complaining about something that would effect every level above the range your really talking about where what your talking about doesn’t apply. And again I’ll say that idc about twink until enchants and stat guns are made pve only which would make twink pvp good like how it used to be but that will more than likely never happen. Oh well

[Naetheanimal]

Focus on what you are saying, your arguments are poor.

From my experience at L22 there is 3 main class, bear, mage, fox. Fox is glass cannon, nukes hard if you are lucky to dodge, thx to str gear hammer, not the class itself, dex foxes are more balanced(fbow or talon), less dmg and armor than str foxes, but quicker and range.

Mage with fbow is glass canon too, easy to kill, easy to die. Paw mage is a figther, can compete with all kind of gear.

Dex bears are abit weaker, can still nuke hard if crit, str bears is balanced and can nuke while been the tanker class.

In my opinion, L22-23 is one of the most balanced levels, ive tryed bird too, with fbow you kill bears, with cutter you kill foxes and rhinos, vs mages there is not much to do, mage is the main counter. There is not many rhinos but should be good thx to str hammer gear (not the class, class is the weakest in game)

At L25/30 its a different game, elites made an huge diff, they need to be banned, armor gives too much health and armor, fights are endless and boring unless you have an elite weapon. (dex weapon worth over 100M)

I dont know any lvl wich fox is main and opest class(ive tryed every lvl)

I may be wrong, its my point of view.

[MageFFA]

Focus on what you are saying, your arguments are poor.

From my experience at L22 there is 3 main class, bear, mage, fox. Fox is glass cannon, nukes hard if you are lucky to dodge, thx to str gear hammer, not the class itself, dex foxes are more balanced(fbow or talon), less dmg and armor than str foxes, but quicker and range.

Mage with fbow is glass canon too, easy to kill, easy to die. Paw mage is a figther, can compete with all kind of gear.

Dex bears are abit weaker, can still nuke hard if crit, str bears is balanced and can nuke while been the tanker class.

In my opinion, L22-23 is one of the most balanced levels, ive tryed bird too, with fbow you kill bears, with cutter you kill foxes and rhinos, vs mages there is not much to do, mage is the main counter. There is not many rhinos but should be good thx to str hammer gear (not the class, class is the weakest in game)

At L25/30 its a different game, elites made an huge diff, they need to be banned, armor gives too much health and armor, fights are endless and boring unless you have an elite weapon. (dex weapon worth over 100M)

I dont know any lvl wich fox is main and opest class(ive tryed every lvl)

I may be wrong, its my point of view.

I respect your point of view but I view it as flawed. As it stands right now a dex cutter/pounder fox has the ability to nuke even the strongest of tank bears. You're looking at a class that has a active 25% damage buff which makes it so that players like madmozbad, a legit good fox mind you, can use even thunder hammer on his fox and still kill you. Fox IS the dominate class in 22 and that's without a doubt. Debuffs are ineffective so unless you own a snowball launcher or the maximum armor value capable for a Iron blood bear in 22 good luck keeping the fox off you. It's either nuke them or be nuked and since you're here and I know you play twink would you mind telling everyone else how hard a fox hits in 22 so they can't use the excuse that I'm being biased.

As for Fbow mages while hit% being terrible does limit their ability to be a perfect 11/10 class like normal, they make up for it when they crit. As we stand now post 3pc removal mages are still finding a way to land well past 350-450 critical on their drain, light, or fire. Compare this to what classes such as bears, birds, and rhinos do it overshadows them completely. Take that to mind that critical holds the edge in fights and you'll see what I mean. Hell most mages aren't even using fbow anymore because being pally changes nothing.

22 birds are nonexistent and 20 birds are on the edge of dying out now that 22 foxes are making their comeback.

Rhinos have been hit hard twice with nerfs, something mages and foxes are neglected in receiving, and we are this when 17 fbow bears can easily dominate post hammer/sword rhinos without putting much effort into the fight. I simple stomp sms is enough damage to either nuke or severely cripple the rhino. Let's not even talk about what hammer birds do to 20 rhinos..

As it stands the ONLY balanced classes are bears, birds, and rhinos. As for balanced levels it'll have to be 20 because at least mages and foxes don't get their damage buffs that makes them literal gods in 22.

[MageFFA]

Hell nea i can start recording all my fights using dyspo showing everyone how insane 22 dex foxes are when paired with the best overall dex based gear and pounder.

[MageFFA]

Soooo your talking about pvp under 50 where sets are not really a thing cause after 50 before the 50 stat gun and enchants nothing your saying applied. Granted idrc cause twink pvp is dead and gone after stat guns and enchants came to pl. But really let’s be real your talking about pvp where you now have elite gear which should have never been a thing in low lvl and complaining about something that would effect every level above the range your really talking about where what your talking about doesn’t apply. And again I’ll say that idc about twink until enchants and stat guns are made pve only which would make twink pvp good like how it used to be but that will more than likely never happen. Oh well

10-22 are levels that are devoid of any sort of broken gear such as elite weapons or pure stat. While 30 is indeed ruined thanks to enchants in general , let alone the increase in stats Enchantments can have, it could still be saved if enchants AND elites are nerfed down a bit. Even with that in knowledge the next big complaint about the PvP there would be mages, the original big bad before enchants, 3pc, and elites ever came into play.

[Naetheanimal]

There is always a better class or gear at every lvl bracket, foxes and mages are maybe the stronger at 22,but not that op, bears are excellent too. Its easy to kill a fox with a stun or crip slash, mages have now really low hit, not even 90 if u using 2H weapon. If you hs or blind shot after heal, they will miss everything. Crits are hard but only on drain if its maxed, drain has very long cooldown, when you miss it, you loose the fight. Foxes dont have any high dmg skill like drain, their 300+ crits come from plat pack hammer auto, not from skills. Anyway you don't do 300 dmg every time, its random big crits.

Mages and foxes are the weaker at L71
Foxes are not the best at 56.
Foxes at 30 are glasscannon, can be nuked by every class.

I dont see the point on a nerf.
Only thing I would nerf is elite gear at L25 but the best thing to survive is adapt. Im lucky I have enough gold to afford elite gear, most pvpers will have non elite or just armor.

[MageFFA]

You left out tons of information in your first post, which paints an exaggerated picture of the status quo, whithout illustrating any of the problems in a way that is comprehensible.
Why exactly are they overpowered? What makes them op? What levels are you refering to? Why are they overpowered in those levels? How should they be balanced out?

I know we beat this dead horse over and over again and I don't disagree on some of the points that have been made in those past discussions. Just saying that you presented your case poorly. At the very least link to past discussions or quote them.

There is nothing exaggerated about my post. Anyone who plays 22 will not agree that foxes damage is any sort of natural. As for me quoting past discussions on mage it seems me and cams posts was either deleted or we can't find. The ones I have now will have to do. As for why I made the post, Cinco himself agreed to conversate on the underlyingissues that dwell in twink PvP, this is how we got 3pc and 25-27 stats fixed. With this noted the discussion is now based on class issues while cinco works on what he's doing now.

Video and pictures will be posted to further prove the point of what this discussion is for.

1. Why exactly are they overpowered? Simple. As it stands now foxes possess the highest base damage in the game as a class. At levels 22-30 foxes will absolutely shred your hp in a matter of a second no matter their attributes. I've tested a max tank bear that buffs up to 108 armor, that's equal to a former L.40 bear and a active L.25 with str elite armor and a elite blaster, elite str armor gives 70 base armor and elite blaster gives 39, which if you compare these armor stats to the normal 25 you'll see that the highest natural armor stat you can receive is about 65 on a full tank bear.Now what do you think happened? Oh I almost nuked from the simplicity of rabid ham darts. That's 108 armor while most 22s who use dex only have around 28 armor with fbow and 40 with talon.

Well why don't you kite the fox might you ask? Foxes, like rhinos, don't even need to be near you for their dashes to still do damage so stunning them becomes useless if you don't want to take dash damage. Hypnotize is 12 meters so you can kite them and not only is hit% bugged making debuffs irrelevant, most bears use 1 -3 hs now and 6 blind isn't a thing,
they have fury, a hit buff.

The simple answer for fox is that the 25% damage buff cinco did to make foxes more reliable in 100 cap completely altered a already power class in twink in general. I did 31 fox and enjoyed my experience so when the buff happened nothing went unnoticed. Foxes have dodge but they deserve it because they possess no good sort of defence outside of it.

As for mages the biggest problem of them all lies in their critical damage. Foxes own the most damage but foxes dominate the crit scence. A drain usually stands at 350-400 on average nowadays, the lowest for a crit drain I've seen was 250 which is equal to what a full combo from what a pounde bird does. A fire is right behind mages in the spectrum and when it came to the same test vs my armor bear nothing changed drastically. Having super high armor did make the damage received from non crit weaker but when it came to crits actually landing it was just as aggravating as fox was. A staggering 432 was what I received with ib up. No 3pc. No elites. Just a fbow mage with experts.

Simple answer. Mages possess far higher critical damage to other classes. Compared to bird that's a crit based class you'll see that 400 Isn't even on their scale. The max I've hit with my pounder bird was 310 and that was against a mage who didn't heal off my break in time on combo. It took me to use break root shatter blast just to hit a max of 310 while a mage can get away with a 450 on 1 skill alone.

2. How to balance them? I would make the sulotion that foxes should have the damage buffed they received in 100 cap revoked. It was a absolutely mistake that dispite being selfishly made to benefit endgame, totally failed. Foxes normal damage was good enough and their dodge isn't broken imo. Either or we can all debate. As for mages it's all in their damage and crit. 20% is good enough but we again can all discuss better solutions. I'm not the only person in this.

If you wish I can take screenshots and post videos on the topic.

[MageFFA]

There is always a better class or gear at every lvl bracket, foxes and mages are maybe the stronger at 22,but not that op, bears are excellent too. Its easy to kill a fox with a stun or crip slash, mages have now really low hit, not even 90 if u using 2H weapon. If you hs or blind shot after heal, they will miss everything. Crits are hard but only on drain if its maxed, drain has very long cooldown, when you miss it, you loose the fight. Foxes dont have any high dmg skill like drain, their 300+ crits come from plat pack hammer auto, not from skills. Anyway you don't do 300 dmg every time, its random big crits.

Mages and foxes are the weaker at L71
Foxes are not the best at 56.
Foxes at 30 are glasscannon, can be nuked by every class.

I dont see the point on a nerf.
Only thing I would nerf is elite gear at L25 but the best thing to survive is adapt. Im lucky I have enough gold to afford elite gear, most pvpers will have non elite or just armor.

Trust me Debuffs deal absolutely nothing dispite hit being low. I've personally blinded a str besr with 85 hit% twice and it didn't nothib against his slashes. My blind was L.6.

Your statements on the level doesn't go into details why they are not the best there. The sets benefit certain classes more then others and that's a fact. A hybrid dex bear with beastly gem sword is obviously going to eat a 71 mage because the bear has so much damage. 56 foxes aren't the best but they come close because the stats are balanced with enough armor to keep them alive and enough skill points on fury so that they can equalize the fight without having to worry about hit% like in 30. While in 30 it's all on level. Back in 2014 in no way foxes was glass cannons. They were rough to beat most of the time and was reasonably tanky but I see your point. The average shiv bear would occasionally destroy the average fox.

Yet this isn't a level issue. If this was just happening in 22 I wouldn't of made any of my posts. Players didn't want rhinos to be removed from the entire game just because they were op in 17. Player's didn't want bears to be nerfed globally just because L.71 hybrid bears were broken. I made this post because it's a global issue in twink. From L.22 all the way to L.61. Only L.66+ can equalize the issue because of stronger buffs and debuffs. When we and duckypowerz returned to 56 in 2018 we saw that mages just overall dominated birds no matter what we used. Custom couldn't kill them. Xbow didn't harm them as it use to and a L.61 sang bird couldn't compete as equals with lilith mages either. If I'm lying he can call me out on it right now. In 35 with enchants it's the same mess. Mages dominated birds because of high crit which wasn't random since it happened in every fight. Now you'll prolly say it's because of enchants but I'll just counter you by mentioning why 35 honor is dead. Mages killed it. If I'm lying about 35, a level I practically main, burntoutdex will call me a liar on it also. We still have full on screenshots exposing mages crits now. In 27 it was the same thing until sts nerfed the stats down so 27 Isn't the problem anymore. Now it's 22.

[MageFFA]

https://www.spacetimestudios.com/sho...nce-Suggestion!

https://www.spacetimestudios.com/sho...g-recent-patch

Me and cams former posts regarding the issues with mage. We have our picture collections showing the critical damage of mages compared to birds.

[Tpfelblatt]

I dislike your balance suggestion, because it also affects endgame and isn't contained to the twink levels, where they are, in your opinion, a problem.
Fox is absolute trash in normal endgame FFA, because every class has at least two stunns/roots with higher or same range as foxes dash + knockbacks, while Fox has ONE unstun with 15 (FIFTEEN) second cooldown.

I've played a bit in 22 and imho everything that can utilize the Lvl 20 Hammer Plat Pack most efficiently seems to be doing well.

[#waydog2020]

I've played a bit in 22 and imho everything that can utilize the Lvl 20 Hammer Plat Pack most efficiently seems to be doing well.

And what does that say about balance? lol

[MageFFA]

I dislike your balance suggestion, because it also affects endgame and isn't contained to the twink levels, where they are, in your opinion, a problem.
Fox is absolute trash in normal endgame FFA, because every class has at least two stunns/roots with higher or same range as foxes dash + knockbacks, while Fox has ONE unstun with 15 (FIFTEEN) second cooldown.

I've played a bit in 22 and imho everything that can utilize the Lvl 20 Hammer Plat Pack most efficiently seems to be doing well.

If endgame fox still can't compete with the 2 active buffs on the class then what's the purpose of leaving it there to kill the rest of the game. Not only did it not change anything in endgame but it completely ruined the balance of twink with foxes. This isn't fair for us. Let's say it did work though. Is endgame more important than twink? As for plat hammer. The mere damage of it is high but no other class will come close to the nuclear power fox obtains with and without it. Even a shock hammer fox is bound to mess you up at this rate.

[Tpfelblatt]

Just suggest a fix that doesn't affect endgame.
It could be arena level based. Or skill level based. Contain it!
I don't see why we can't have balanced endgame and twink. No need to ruin one over the other.
I have some thoughts on endgame fox but I want to get mythic sets first so I can actually give informed feedback.

Not disagreeing with your basic premise btw. In twink levels below 30 - 35 Bird is awfully weak. Fox, Mage AND Bear generally have heavy nukes. Rhino can compete on some level. But every level has their top tier classes and it often changes when you go 5 levels up.
I just don't like your balance suggestions and I'm only posting because I feel like they are going to ruin Lvl100 honor.

[MageFFA]

Just suggest a fix that doesn't affect endgame.
It could be arena level based. Or skill level based. Contain it!
I don't see why we can't have balanced endgame and twink. No need to ruin one over the other.
I have some thoughts on endgame fox but I want to get mythic sets first so I can actually give informed feedback.

Not disagreeing with your basic premise btw. In twink levels below 30 - 35 Bird is awfully weak. Fox, Mage AND Bear generally have heavy nukes. Rhino can compete on some level. But every level has their top tier classes and it often changes when you go 5 levels up.
I just don't like your balance suggestions and I'm only posting because I feel like they are going to ruin Lvl100 honor.

I understand your reasoning but StS and the endgame community should of thought about all of the balancing changes they made to selfishly "better" endgame. Because of endgame foxes are broken in twink and also because of selfish endgame rhinos as a class was killed off in twink because endgamers couldn't distinguish the difference between rhino being op or the set they use being op, on top of the fact that they are looking to nerf rhinos AGAIN. That's the true definition of beating a dead horse.

You guys can't have it both ways. This is the entirety of twink with the same problem that we have to deal with constantly from 20 to 45 on a daily basis vs something endgamers barely do.