Endgame PvP Restoration

[ign Boss]

By adding stronger & more class specific set bonuses to endgame sets, I think this avoids touching the levels that I enjoy most - 12-21, and is an isolated solution for the isolated problem that is endgame. That's a very good idea and one I've never considered for other level reform.

However, I disagree with stopping skill points past 56. It ruins a sense of progression, not for the older more established players, but may affect more the new players who find out that once they reached level 56, they have nothing else to work for besides the gear. Gear will become the thing that allows people to efficiently do dungeons, which is a huge disadvantage for the non-wealthy new players once again. For those who would not be able to afford pink sets with the increased set bonuses, STS would have to re-do many epic items, greens, etc. which at the current work rate, is too much work.

I believe the true problems remain in absolutely horrid HP/damage received balance at higher levels (think of twinking levels, for example at 12-21 should be the pace of every duel -- 15-30 seconds.), critical attacks, and dodge.

1) Your solutions address this pretty well by adding set bonuses that can nearly double the HP of an endgame character whilst providing incentives for classes to choose class specific gear, AND while not touching most twinking levels. Bravo.
2) Critical attacks rate should be nerfed EVEN further, not boosted up. first of all, critical rate requires no skill. why should we argue for nearly 1/2 of skills to be a "critical hit" again when it again, requires no skill. What do we do to activate a critical hit? Nothing at all. It happens on it's own. It's a luck factor that should be present only in a lesser form (15% max?), or present in only short bursts (crit buffs give 5 seconds of increased normal critical hit rate).
3) Same thing for dodge.
Of course with lower crit rate, we'd need to scale healing throughout the entire board to prevent mages from becoming OP tanks.

TLDR: By eliminating luck factors and scaling damage/heal/HP further through your set bonuses & other good ideas in this thread, I think endgame could become a pretty balanced place.

This thread is about endgame, (the major concern), not L12-21. Maxed skills would not remove incentive for leveling up at L56. Stat points would still accumulate (boosting the damage of each skill) and new gear would still available (which also boost power.) It is a non-sequitur to say that stopping skill points would negate a "sense of progress" because each player would still be progressing. Stat points boost the power of each skill (progressing) and wealth has nothing to do with a rebalance. Obviously "poor" players can't afford "good" sets. It's how it's always been. Always. What makes a rebalance (there already have been rebalances before) make wealth a factor in restoring PVP balance? It doesn't. If someone wants a set they will work for it by either farming or merching. That's how the game works.

Second, critical rates should not be nerfed. These new statistics are based off the Sewer cap which is considered the most balanced Cap in PL by a majority of the community. As someone who loves low level PVP the most, to more experienced end game PVPers like Dolloway and I we see how these rebalanced statistics would actually help the balance. Dodge is lowered and replaced with hp. Factors like this is why boosts in critical rates are necessary. Don't forget that these sets need to still be able to work in PVE (the current sets are actually slightly underpowered in the current PVE). It is undeniable that this guide to balance Endgame is obviously the most accurate.


ign ALL HAIL

[DivineMoustache]

This thread is about endgame, (the major concern), not L12-21. Maxed skills would not remove incentive for leveling up at L56. Stat points would still accumulate (boosting the damage of each skill) and new gear would still available (which also boost power.) It is a non-sequitur to say that stopping skill points would negate a "sense of progress" because each player would still be progressing. Stat points boost the power of each skill (progressing) and wealth has nothing to do with a rebalance. Obviously "poor" players can't afford "good" sets. It's how it's always been. Always. What makes a rebalance (there already have been rebalances before) make wealth a factor in restoring PVP balance? It doesn't. If someone wants a set they will work for it by either farming or merching. That's how the game works.

Second, critical rates should not be nerfed. These new statistics are based off the Sewer cap which is considered the most balanced Cap in PL by a majority of the community. As someone who loves low level PVP the most, to more experienced end game PVPers like Dolloway and I we see how these rebalanced statistics would actually help the balance. Dodge is lowered and replaced with hp. Factors like this is why boosts in critical rates are necessary. Don't forget that these sets need to still be able to work in PVE (the current sets are actually slightly underpowered in the current PVE). It is undeniable that this guide to balance Endgame is obviously the most accurate.


ign ALL HAIL

obviously , I understand this thred is about endgame. Unfortunately, endgame is not the only part of the game there is. The only mention I had of 12-21 was of my compliment to his suggestion to invest most the changes into ITEMS rather than larger gamewide mechanics changes. EDIT: that's a lie: i mentioned 12-21 when trying to compare the perfect pace of PvP - -15 - 30 seconds per fight.

Also, Stat points at this very moment, do very little to boost skill damage whatsoever, compared to the improvement from skill level 1 to skill level 2.

Regarding sets and pinks: The issue is not also whether someone should work for a set as well, the real issue is "should we implement this plan to benefit only the older players & screw the newer ones?". As sets become more powerful, it is almost certain that demand will increase, increasing price. It's not even an issue of supply when things are added to items, people in the community will associate increase in stats = increase in price. ALSO, The unfortunate downside of these more powerful sets are that the devs will have to rebalance all greens and purps to be nearly as efficient as the pinks (just as in your beloved sewer era). This is likely not going to happen. Without more powerful greens, pinks WILL become the only option, specifically SET pinks. not even the trash pinks people throw away for 10k. This creates a larger gap between poor and rich through the items they use. Your argument that they will need to work for it is pretty biased imo coming from a wealthier endgamer. It is pretty hard to farm dungeons like feast//etc. with crappy greens, teammates with crappy greens, and dungeon level teammates. It will be even harder because no doubt the devs will increase mob/boss difficulty to handle these more powerful sets (which are probably geared to have mostly PvP in mind anyway), making it harder for those left behind to catch up. Harder farming = harder gold. Harder gold = no set.

Not "can they work for it?", but "is it feasible to work for it anymore?" All I see is this increasing difficulty for newer players.

Your comment about matching the most balanced cap in PL by the majority of the community is irrelevant. Why can things not improve? What if sewers was viewed as the most balanced because the rest of the campaigns were relatively unbalanced? Like putting a high schooler in a kindergarten basketball game does not make him the greatest basketball player alive.

Another basketball analogy: Michael Jordan is considered the greatest basketball player to ever live. Does that mean all players should strive to match him? He is a worthy STANDARD, but if there's room for improvement, then take it. Look at lebron james, over 50 pounds heavier with the same physicality jordan played with. His IMPROVED Physical skills make him arguably the better basketball player than MJ. (although many view him as "soft" whatever, that's besides the point.)

moving past the long analogy:
Why should we make the game about luck (critical) when it can just as easily be balanced for a more consistent form of PvP? By balancing damage to match lower critical and lower dodge, and higher HP, we make the game more consistent AS A WHOLE. Is this not what you want? A PvP where nearly 100% of the time, the MOST skilled player wins rather than the luckiest? By nearly removing crit and dodge, THIS IS ENSURED.

Obviously, this guide is incredibly well written and well thought out. I agree with you that this is the most accurate guide to rebalance. However some of the suggestions, although good on paper, could have various negative consequences when applied in Real Game situations.

[ign Boss]

obviously , I understand this thred is about endgame. Unfortunately, endgame is not the only part of the game there is. The only mention I had of 12-21 was of my compliment to his suggestion to invest most the changes into ITEMS rather than larger gamewide mechanics changes. EDIT: that's a lie: i mentioned 12-21 when trying to compare the perfect pace of PvP - -15 - 30 seconds per fight.

Also, Stat points at this very moment, do very little to boost skill damage whatsoever, compared to the improvement from skill level 1 to skill level 2.

Regarding sets and pinks: The issue is not also whether someone should work for a set as well, the real issue is "should we implement this plan to benefit only the older players & screw the newer ones?". As sets become more powerful, it is almost certain that demand will increase, increasing price. It's not even an issue of supply when things are added to items, people in the community will associate increase in stats = increase in price. ALSO, The unfortunate downside of these more powerful sets are that the devs will have to rebalance all greens and purps to be nearly as efficient as the pinks (just as in your beloved sewer era). This is likely not going to happen. Without more powerful greens, pinks WILL become the only option, specifically SET pinks. not even the trash pinks people throw away for 10k. This creates a larger gap between poor and rich through the items they use. Your argument that they will need to work for it is pretty biased imo coming from a wealthier endgamer. It is pretty hard to farm dungeons like feast//etc. with crappy greens, teammates with crappy greens, and dungeon level teammates. It will be even harder because no doubt the devs will increase mob/boss difficulty to handle these more powerful sets (which are probably geared to have mostly PvP in mind anyway), making it harder for those left behind to catch up. Harder farming = harder gold. Harder gold = no set.

Not "can they work for it?", but "is it feasible to work for it anymore?" All I see is this increasing difficulty for newer players.

Your comment about matching the most balanced cap in PL by the majority of the community is irrelevant. Why can things not improve? What if sewers was viewed as the most balanced because the rest of the campaigns were relatively unbalanced? Like putting a high schooler in a kindergarten basketball game does not make him the greatest basketball player alive.

Another basketball analogy: Michael Jordan is considered the greatest basketball player to ever live. Does that mean all players should strive to match him? He is a worthy STANDARD, but if there's room for improvement, then take it. Look at lebron james, over 50 pounds heavier with the same physicality jordan played with. His IMPROVED Physical skills make him arguably the better basketball player than MJ. (although many view him as "soft" whatever, that's besides the point.)

moving past the long analogy:
Why should we make the game about luck (critical) when it can just as easily be balanced for a more consistent form of PvP? By balancing damage to match lower critical and lower dodge, and higher HP, we make the game more consistent AS A WHOLE. Is this not what you want? A PvP where nearly 100% of the time, the MOST skilled player wins rather than the luckiest? By nearly removing crit and dodge, THIS IS ENSURED.

Obviously, this guide is incredibly well written and well thought out. I agree with you that this is the most accurate guide to rebalance. However some of the suggestions, although good on paper, could have various negative consequences when applied in Real Game situations.

Why do you think it is so important to have such powered skills? Stat points are enough to improve skill strength and over time make a significant difference. Increased level means better sets which also lead to stronger skills. There is really no point for skills to go over 6.

The only reasons the values of the sets would increase is a greater demand for the sets. A greater demand is balanced with a greater amount of farmers. A with more balanced sets mean more people will want to pvp AND pve end game. Fiery set would be the only set that would raise significantly because it's currently the most underpowered- it is only increasing in price to become balanced. This change would in no way make it harder for "poor" players to farm. The sets are not significantly stronger. They are balanced. Balanced does not mean stronger. And As I said, the current sets are underpowered in pve. It is nearly impossible to farm elite red dragon with out a team of 3x combos with sets. This rebalance would make PvE balanced as well therefore making it slightly more fair for a team without elixirs. Changing the stats of all the greens and purples and the bosses and mobs is very extremist. No where does it recommend the change and it is ultimately unnecessary. Also, I don't know what you mean by those "left behind". There is no person left behind. This cap has been out for a brutal 19-20 months and I assume will be the last cap. Anyone left behind will have infinite time to catch up. Farming dragon has nothing to do with anything. Many new players do it just fine with a team. A rebalance of end game's effect on farming dragon is exaggerated and untrue. I can farm it right now with a green set and a team. It's a 65 dungeon anyways. This rebalance is simply about the stats of the sets. They've been changed before, and these drastic effects you claim have never occurred.

Sewers pve was not unbalanced? And sewer sets were never overpowered in sewer pve. (You can still test it)

Crit does not make pvp focused on luck. You're not looking at the set as a whole. If you see every aspect of each statistic it's clear where it balances out. It is undeniable that sewers was the most balanced and most enjoyable cap. Why would we change what we know works? The new balance is based off what sewer sets were and increased accordingly to level 75. View crit more as damage than luck. 50% crit means half of your shots will have more damage. This is balanced by an increased hp and regain to counter the greater damage delt by crit.


ign ALL HAIL

[DivineMoustache]

Why do you think it is so important to have such powered skills? Stat points are enough to improve skill strength and over time make a significant difference. Increased level means better sets which also lead to stronger skills. There is really no point for skills to go over 6.

The only reasons the values of the sets would increase is a greater demand for the sets. A greater demand is balanced with a greater amount of farmers. A with more balanced sets mean more people will want to pvp AND pve end game. Fiery set would be the only set that would raise significantly because it's currently the most underpowered- it is only increasing in price to become balanced. This change would in no way make it harder for "poor" players to farm. The sets are not significantly stronger. They are balanced. Balanced does not mean stronger. And As I said, the current sets are underpowered in pve. It is nearly impossible to farm elite red dragon with out a team of 3x combos with sets. This rebalance would make PvE balanced as well therefore making it slightly more fair for a team without elixirs. Changing the stats of all the greens and purples and the bosses and mobs is very extremist. No where does it recommend the change and it is ultimately unnecessary. Also, I don't know what you mean by those "left behind". There is no person left behind. This cap has been out for a brutal 19-20 months and I assume will be the last cap. Anyone left behind will have infinite time to catch up. Farming dragon has nothing to do with anything. Many new players do it just fine with a team. A rebalance of end game's effect on farming dragon is exaggerated and untrue. I can farm it right now with a green set and a team. It's a 65 dungeon anyways. This rebalance is simply about the stats of the sets. They've been changed before, and these drastic effects you claim have never occurred.

Sewers pve was not unbalanced? And sewer sets were never overpowered in sewer pve. (You can still test it)

Crit does not make pvp focused on luck. You're not looking at the set as a whole. If you see every aspect of each statistic it's clear where it balances out. It is undeniable that sewers was the most balanced and most enjoyable cap. Why would we change what we know works? The new balance is based off what sewer sets were and increased accordingly to level 75. View crit more as damage than luck. 50% crit means half of your shots will have more damage. This is balanced by an increased hp and regain to counter the greater damage delt by crit.


ign ALL HAIL

50% crit means you have a theoretical 50% chance of crit. Most of us have experienced the thrill of 5 straight crits ending a fight or 5 straight dodges rather than the usually dodge 2 hit 2.
Eliminating these crit factors lowers the chance of lucky fight. I don't see how you can deny that...perhaps i'm not explaining it very well.

Also I'm not saying that sewer was NOT unbalanced though I may have given out that assumption. What I meant is that it's a poor choice to limit ourselves to sewer age crit and dodge factors. see above.

Your point on balanced and not stronger was interesting, made me realize that yes, they are not stronger, but only have more HP and less dodge and crit chance. However, this will not prevent a rebalance of all items, because the previously mentioned purps/greens will have have a normal current day level of dodge/crit as well, which will still require rebalance of nearly every item to prevent "drainer's rage" I.E. oranges dodging more than pinks/crit more than pinks.

It is also pretty damn hard to farm Feast with a team of green fellers and lower level people. You're pro, I can understand you finding a good *** team or carrying the team on your back. Not everyone comes into the game with the common knowledge of how to wreck aunt emma or edward.

I also think it's important to keep skill progression the same because my idea is to NERF crit %, and INCREASE damage to a balanced level with less dodge and more HP.

[ign Boss]

50% crit means you have a theoretical 50% chance of crit. Most of us have experienced the thrill of 5 straight crits ending a fight or 5 straight dodges rather than the usually dodge 2 hit 2.
Eliminating these crit factors lowers the chance of lucky fight. I don't see how you can deny that...perhaps i'm not explaining it very well.

Also I'm not saying that sewer was NOT unbalanced though I may have given out that assumption. What I meant is that it's a poor choice to limit ourselves to sewer age crit and dodge factors. see above.

Your point on balanced and not stronger was interesting, made me realize that yes, they are not stronger, but only have more HP and less dodge and crit chance. However, this will not prevent a rebalance of all items, because the previously mentioned purps/greens will have have a normal current day level of dodge/crit as well, which will still require rebalance of nearly every item to prevent "drainer's rage" I.E. oranges dodging more than pinks/crit more than pinks.

It is also pretty damn hard to farm Feast with a team of green fellers and lower level people. You're pro, I can understand you finding a good *** team or carrying the team on your back. Not everyone comes into the game with the common knowledge of how to wreck aunt emma or edward.

I also think it's important to keep skill progression the same because my idea is to NERF crit %, and INCREASE damage to a balanced level with less dodge and more HP.

The point is that the sewer cap worked. It's viewed as balanced and fun. A little luck is good. We shouldn't try to change something that works. If everyone clearly loves the sewer age, then let's recreate it. The rebalance is not based on luck at all. Obviously skill will prevail. Even now I can consistently kill each class even though it's unbalanced.

Also I don't see the problem with drainer. The current greens are not nearly overpowered and won't be overpowered with the rebalance.

Increasing skills to 9. More dodge. More crit. More damage. Not a good idea. There is still progression. But in a lesser extreme.

If you're talking about overall balance and community happiness, this is the way to go. As simple as that.


ign ALL HAIL

[DivineMoustache]

The point is that the sewer cap worked. It's viewed as balanced and fun. A little luck is good. We shouldn't try to change something that works. If everyone clearly loves the sewer age, then let's recreate it. The rebalance is not based on luck at all. Obviously skill will prevail. Even now I can consistently kill each class even though it's unbalanced.

Also I don't see the problem with drainer. The current greens are not nearly overpowered and won't be overpowered with the rebalance.

Increasing skills to 9. More dodge. More crit. More damage. Not a good idea. There is still progression. But in a lesser extreme.

If you're talking about overall balance and community happiness, this is the way to go. As simple as that.


ign ALL HAIL

There is no problem with drainer, however there was a perceived one caused by people using pinks getting rekt by people using oranges.
However, not sure why a little luck can be good in this case. The goal of this thread was to get rid of OP dodge & make a scene again where consistency and skill execution matters over luck. Less crit = more consistent results = more skill required to play the game. Is that not the point?

[ign Boss]

There is no problem with drainer, however there was a perceived one caused by people using pinks getting rekt by people using oranges.
However, not sure why a little luck can be good in this case. The goal of this thread was to get rid of OP dodge & make a scene again where consistency and skill execution matters over luck. Less crit = more consistent results = more skill required to play the game. Is that not the point?

There will be no drainer effect. Also why would it be bad if drainer could kill a set.

Absolutely no luck. Lol that would mean I would kill a "noob" 100% of the time. Don't get confused with crit and luck. Crit is not luck. If it was balanced during sewers what makes you think it all of a sudden won't be balanced anymore? It will be balanced. However if you feel this strongly that this method is not what you want you can make a thread and try to balance the stats. You won't know how much damage would be balanced and if it's enough to pve.

This thread is the way to go. (Please don't counter argument anymore)


ign ALL HAIL