Juggernaut Change Discussion

[geeman75]

Warriors get the best deal on mythic set and unlike the other classes mythic set of warrior is OP in PvP.

I don't disagree as gear is a better deal for wars, I'm just saying that an upgrade shouldn't include a downgrade with it. That goes for all the classes... especially a armor nerf for wars.

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[Oezheasate]

Warriors get the best deal on mythic set and unlike the other classes mythic set of warrior is OP in PvP.

The drop in stats is still quite annoying tho, ofc the axe pull is op but the stats should at least stay on a similar level.

[Ardbeg]

the drop in stats for the new axe throw is intentional, as it is for all classes. it s a trade-off: you want the op skill, say bye bye to op stats. nothing is wrong with that, as long as the new skill works like advertised.

[Oezheasate]

the drop in stats for the new axe throw is intentional, as it is for all classes. it s a trade-off: you want the op skill, say bye bye to op stats. nothing is wrong with that, as long as the new skill works like advertised.

I dont think its ok seeing as how we are much weaker alrdy than the other classes.

[mesalin]

Mages r weak too :3

Yes yes!
So squishy without shield


<Forgiveness>

[rustygun]

All the proposed changes by carapace should be made except the change to second wind.

Second wind looks like it would make fixing jug pointless

[rustygun]

I don't disagree as gear is a better deal for wars, I'm just saying that an upgrade shouldn't include a downgrade with it. That goes for all the classes... especially a armor nerf for wars.

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All the proposed changes by carapace should be made except the change to second wind.

Agree second wind will defeat the purpose of this fix our heal is more beneficial to rogue and mages I die 4 seconds after healing when HP low also I die blowing horn many times..

[rustygun]

I don't disagree as gear is a better deal for wars, I'm just saying that an upgrade shouldn't include a downgrade with it. That goes for all the classes... especially a armor nerf for wars.

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So, after all this is all about pvp....

Suggestion for pve give tanks a pop up rage skill can add a very thin (colour up to STG) meter bar under mana bar that full gradually when tanks hit or take hits.. When pressed to activate mobs get waves of damage on initial activation, tank dmg raised to pure distructive power and buff last more or less 10 sec.. Pve only

[rustygun]

I don't disagree as gear is a better deal for wars, I'm just saying that an upgrade shouldn't include a downgrade with it. That goes for all the classes... especially a armor nerf for wars.

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2.5% hp regain seems quite low. For a warrior with 9500hp for example, that would only be 237hp. But with the other extras it may be decent. Rotating Nekro with juggernaut seems more logical now. Everyone is probably going to spec DOT off once again.

In pvp when I tested long ago, I think charged jugg only granted 450 hp due to the global pvp nerf rather than the 500 hp. Would the nerf be applied to this as well?

Yes you right rav..

[Oezheasate]

Mages r weak too :3

mages are actually catching up to rogues in terms of opness, they are actually starting to act somewhat as tanks in clashes.

[Froxanthar]

Mages weak? I have really hard time to break Mages double shield ( Arcane Shield and Nekro Shield ).

[Skvll]

Focus on warriors in this thread please. Not mages and rogues.

[geeman75]

I dont think its ok seeing as how we are much weaker alrdy than the other classes.

Agreed....

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[Dex Scene]

Hey everyone,

I was busy toiling away on some other things but I'm digging through the input here and have some additional thoughts based on feedback I've read thus far.

The weakness of the skill was not as apparent as it was once the points were being made, as well as shortcomings in some of the upgrades for the skill. So with that in mind here is a new range of implementation changes to the skill for further discussion:

First, a higher scale rate for the armor. 17.5% for uncharged, and 25% for charged. This is for legendary level gear, the final entry at the bottom being Arcane/Mythics. This is again without pets and without gems.
Attachment 143804

This has a notable improvement compared to the previous iteration, but not too much. The reason why is because of the potential modifications to these upgrades.

Ignore Pain
Currently this provides 20% Damage Reduction as a tap, and 30% as a charged. This would be changed to 40% Damage Reduction on a tap, and 65% Damage Reduction on a charge. This would last the entire duration.

- Combining this with the health boost from scaling armor above results in substantially more effective health for the duration of the effect

Second Wind
Currently this has a 50% chance when below 25% health to heal for an amount based on damage and strength coefficients. The proposed change here is to remove the minimum health requirement so that it has a chance to proc regardless of current health value. The amount healed would also become a fixed percentage. Likely in the 2.5% max health range and at a reduced 33% chance to proc.

- We acknowledge that in its current form 25% minimum health is too low given the power of DPS classes. This upgrade, combined with the revised 'Ignore Pain' and changed scaling for health benefit could prove to make the Warrior a formidable foe during the up time for this ability against skills like Aimed Shot and Lightning, as well as dangerous Elite bosses and content.

Unstoppable
In addition to removing rooting and snaring effects, Unstoppable would also increase your armor by 20% of your STR. This would apply before the Health bonus is calculated to increase your health bonus.

- By utilizing another primary stat of the Warrior, it should provide additional discussions related to things like Jewels and gear combinations to best benefit a warrior utilizing this skill in PvP and PvE circumstances.

Great discussion here, thanks all.

This seems perfect. So many buffs in this skill. Armor buff health buff self heal buffs. All in all it would make warriors a great class. However it doesn't help them much in pve.
A pve buff without effecting the pvp would be needed.
Like some suggested before Class bonus for the pt will help warriors to get invited in pve alot.
At the moment only the best of warriors are somewhat desirable in a pve party.
If there is a class bonus when a party consists a rogue, a mage and a warrior, I think warriors will not have to spend their game life in towns.

Also you guys can introduce some 'pve-only' abilities like mage's freezing, pet's banishing. Give the warriors some cool Pve-only abilities so a warrior in pt don't slow downs the team anymore.

[Dex Scene]

And jugg giving lesser hp in low levels is fine. If warriors are weak at endgame and op at low level, class balance would be buffing them in endgame and the opposite in lower levels.
A level 10 warrior can hold 4 equal geared rogues alone and still type "HAHA KILL ME".
So good job Stg.

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[soon]

what will be changed? The Skill or upgrades? If you change the upgrades could return the skill points that skill?

[MidasMint]

wow theyre going to nerf jugg for twinks

[Oezheasate]

wow theyre going to nerf jugg for twinks

It was kinda needed dont you think?

[Niixed]

Thoughts on the cooldown... Juggernaut's cooldown is the longest of any skill (45 sec), but its duration is also longer than any skill (15 sec). If devs lowered the cooldown they would likely also lower the skill duration. For example a 30 sec cooldown may necessitate a 10 sec duration. This situation may be more desirable unless Jugg proves to be too op with a shorter cooldown.

Please don't forget that sorcerers are not rogues. In PvP (and PvE), sorcerers cannot deal nearly as much damage to a single target as rogues, so they may end up paying the price of an overly-improved Jugg because sorcerers would be totally unable to take down a warrior.

Lightning is NOT Aimed Shot, not by a long shot! Sorcerers get no crit bonus, no armor reduction, and the cooldown is 3 seconds instead of 2. Rogue is the true DPS class because the damage output ceiling is sky-high compared to sorcerers and warriors. A legendary-geared rogue can take out any given boss much faster than a top-geared sorcerer/warrior. Aimed shot plus other rogue mechanics are the primary reasons Jugg needs improvement in PvP.

I'm not attempting to create a tangent, I'm just concerned that we are focusing too much on whether Jugg is able to handle Aimed Shot/Shadow Piercer - aka rogues. The adjustments necessary to properly handle Aimed Shot, etc. could create an unbeatable Warrior in PvP, both for Sorcerers and other Warriors.

First, a higher scale rate for the armor. 17.5% for uncharged, and 25% for charged. This is for legendary level gear, the final entry at the bottom being Arcane/Mythics. This is again without pets and without gems.

This scale seems more sensible than the previous iteration. If you ultimately decide to tie Jugg to armor, please also include the multipliers in the skill description so players are able to discern the personal benefit of an upgrade.

Ignore Pain
Currently this provides 20% Damage Reduction as a tap, and 30% as a charged. This would be changed to 40% Damage Reduction on a tap, and 65% Damage Reduction on a charge. This would last the entire duration.

- Combining this with the health boost from scaling armor above results in substantially more effective health for the duration of the effect

I agree the damage reduction of this upgrade should be improved, but 40%/65% seems like too much. That drastic of an improvement may lead to a severe imbalance. Maybe 30%/50% would be better?

Second Wind
Currently this has a 50% chance when below 25% health to heal for an amount based on damage and strength coefficients. The proposed change here is to remove the minimum health requirement so that it has a chance to proc regardless of current health value. The amount healed would also become a fixed percentage. Likely in the 2.5% max health range and at a reduced 33% chance to proc.

- We acknowledge that in its current form 25% minimum health is too low given the power of DPS classes. This upgrade, combined with the revised 'Ignore Pain' and changed scaling for health benefit could prove to make the Warrior a formidable foe during the up time for this ability against skills like Aimed Shot and Lightning, as well as dangerous Elite bosses and content.

I like the direction, but I'd want to see this tested in real-game combat. Many are saying that 2.5% of health is too low, but they probably aren't considering the fact that the 33% chance to proc would occur with *every* hit, including DoT. Used with other skills and upgrades, overall it looks like a very positive improvement - maybe too positive.

Unstoppable
In addition to removing rooting and snaring effects, Unstoppable would also increase your armor by 20% of your STR. This would apply before the Health bonus is calculated to increase your health bonus.

- By utilizing another primary stat of the Warrior, it should provide additional discussions related to things like Jewels and gear combinations to best benefit a warrior utilizing this skill in PvP and PvE circumstances.

On it's own this would be a great improvement, but combined with the others it may make Jugg too overpowered.

Warriors need improvement, but, as Safiras pointed out, it should be an ongoing process with the Devs continuing to work with the community even after changes are made. I believe the Devs do this already for the most part, but when the Juggernaut changes are first implemented, it would help keep things calmer if everyone understood they are subject (and likely) to change before they are final. Simply calling it Jugg 2.0 beta on the forums and in the client update notes may help put everyone in beta testing mode.

[geeman75]

I have another thought on this issue.
With having to give up Planar Pendant and arcane ring my mana is quite frankly is crap. What good is upgrading jug if we have no mana to use it?
Yes I know some will say use VB. The problem is I will already be using jug and horn.
I ask what give up the only good thing about new set (axe) for ss, or use just mana guzzling axe throw.
Warriors will be the only class forced to use 3 healing skills just to do a vs... I ask is this fair? Rogue gets pierce and asorb in one skill which does decent damage. Mage heals and gets mana back in one heal.
A warrior will need 3 healing skills just to make it past 1st combo from a rogue...


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