PvP Updates: Proposed Balance Changes (7/21/16)

[Kriticality]

To be clear rogues should have been nerfed though. At 41 cap they were terminators. One shotting mages through shield and shattering jugg with 40% damage redux from nekro. The reason mages beat tanks in duel is bc mages heal cycle is very strong. With no nekro I imagine tanks can beat mages. Rogue is rogue. I can beat any rogue in duel as well if not for that op dodge. It's usually lopsided in the rogues favor unless I can land one or two auto. Then ofc Mage can win. Tanks aren't that bad off against mages and mages aren't that bad off against rogues. The battles are closer with Max gear and skills at end game I'd say. I can't comment really on rogue vs tank. A Mage without shield is a dead Mage for sure in any scenario. It's our aimed shot. It's our juggernaut. It is mages most important skill. I'd ask for a reconsideration on nerfing it by 50%.

Some mages may still be fine if they have tons of gear. Others will suffer tremendously by this nerf. I'd imagine 90% of end game mages will be in for a very tough time.

On another note, I've never liked the idea of Mage stacking. This would definitely make me want to. As you will need more mages to rush the rogues now. Shield name can be changed to invincibility. As that is likely the only good the shield will provide anymore.


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[Zeus]

To those mentioning Nekro, we would be evaluating a reduction in the shield of Nekro's AA accordingly as part of this. I'll update my posts with that notion.

Touching Nekro would further kill whatever little survivability a rogue has. If you don't believe me, test what happens to a rogue without a Nekro shield. This is exactly what happens in clash. As soon as that shield is gone, sorcerers rush the rogue and knock his or her lights out.

Again, I really think nerfs are not the answer. Many others think the same as well, so if there could be some way to increase rogues survivability or damage output so they survive in clash, that would be great.

[Hpnvx]

What with the nerfs??? Only thing that needs to be nerfed is korruption, if your gonna nerf heals, might as well nerf kor, at least take a good look at the pet....

[yubaraj]

Exatly all the current nerfs were for rogues, armor, damage, aimed and everyone else class get they survivality buff.

Now a rogue can beat a tank if it isn't enough skilled.

Yap armor got nerfed for rogues.

BTW most people are confused. Rogue damage got buffed in PVP after global nerf. Before global nerf, rogue were affected by damage nerf which also resulted in not getting pet happiness damage buff. Now they are not.

And as far as aimed shot goes their overall damage got buffed. Only thing they lack in 56 team PVP is their survivality.

Instead of nerfing other class. Why don't you give little bit more damage reduction to rogue in some skill. For example give them damage reduction or armor of 30 40 % in shadow veil.

[Saud]

i am sorry
But this is getting ridiculous
Nerf everything not the way to make blance
I think you guys nerf everything cause of rogues
Why not fix them then??
Nerf 2 classes isn't the solution
Give them there armor back
I don't like these nerfs

And you even said rogues beat mages
How we are supposed to win then??

[Valkiryas]

Yap armor got nerfed for rogues.

BTW most people are confused. Rogue damage got buffed in PVP after global nerf. Before global nerf, rogue were affected by damage nerf which also resulted in not getting pet happiness damage buff. Now they are not.

And as far as aimed shot goes their overall damage got buffed. Only thing they lack in 56 team PVP is their survivality.

Instead of nerfing other class. Why don't you give little bit more damage reduction to rogue in some skill. For example give them damage reduction or armor of 30 40 % in shadow veil.

Well everyone class thinks that buffing another "Skill" can be a good solution but it isn't, because Shadow Veil isn't good enough as like asking a warrior to use rally Cry, no one uses it and no one wants to use it ...

[resurrected]

Our understanding of the PvP at endgame based on your posts in other threads is:

In duels:
Rogues > Sorcerers
Sorcerers > Warriors (can someone explain to me how this fight plays out?)
Warriors > Rogues

As others have stated, this is a form of Rock Paper Scissors. This is ok with us, we don't want to upset this balance (though we would like it if player skill can win any of these battles).

Some factors that would help us when considering duels that players can answer:
1) How one-sided are the duel battles right now? For example is the Rogue > Sorcerer battle close, but Rogues usually win? Or is the battle one sided with the Rogue having more than 50% hp while the Sorcerer dies? The same for the Sorcerer vs Warrior matchup, and the Warrior vs Rogue matchup.
2) What skills are typically taken in a 1v1 battle (that aren't taken in a Clash)

In Clashes:
Warriors: Feel good. Sufficiently tanky, with potential damage output.
Sorcerers: Feel good. Squishy but have the ability to survive with shields and good play with Warriors. Damage is ok.
Rogues: Do not feel good. Going up against more than 1 Warrior or Sorcerer leads to not enough damage output to take down a single character before dying.


Rogues are meant to be glass cannons as many players have mentioned. Based on the Duel scenario, it sounds like Rogues are living up to this. They win the duel in which they out-burst the tankiness of their opponent (Sorcerers), they lose the duel in which they cannot burst their opponent down (Warriors).

What we want to look at now is why Rogues cannot perform the same role in Clashes when facing multiple Warriors or Sorcerers. I have seen players mention that Sorcerers can be protected by a good tank, but for some reason a Rogue can not be protected by that same tank. From what players have said, in Clashes a Rogue can't put out enough dps to be effective.

Questions I have about this scenario for Rogues:
1) In a Clash if you're able to get to the Sorcerer, do you feel you can kill them (like you can in a duel)?
2) What skills are typically taken in a Clash (that aren't taken in a Duel)


These are the thoughts that have led us to examining the disparity of PvP adjustments. Rogue's damage has been reduced, but the ability for other classes to survive (as players have mentioned, Rogues don't have many tools to increase survivability) was not. Our desires from this discussion is to target the best way to adjust that without affecting other balances system (specifically duels).

Note:
In terms of these changes happening, we're firmly listening to the community on this one. What we've written is our proposed changes and nothing is going to go live or be tested until a discussion has happened, so please give your feedback on the problem

Actually rogue vs sorc is hard to win if sorc know how to perfect use shield heal nekro/sns circle. I don't know how about now but before it i hardly took down mage. Harder than before aimed " fix "( twink lvl 15)
Skilled mages can take down warriors and its again about timing of circle and skill switch. From my experience mages use 5 skills during fight a warrior or rogue. 3 attack skills with shield and swap one of attack skills to heal when its needed. Warriors do it also like swap chest splitter/skyward smash to venge when they ran out of mana during fight a mage but it all depends on skills.
Skills that are taken by rogues in 1v1 are mostly: aimed shot/nox bolt or razor shield/shadow pierce and combat medic.
Nox bold or razor shield... some rogues use razor shield to not get stunned from mages/warriors when their nekro shield runs out of when they aren't using pet that protects them from stunning.
As for warrior skills are mostly: skyward smash/chest splitter or axe throw/juggernaut or vengeful blood and horn of renew.
Chest splitter vs axe throw... some of warriors use chest splitter for pebble rogue so he/she won't be able to critical hit on him. It also deals more damage in short time than axe. Warriors with some another strategy use axe for take rogue away from packs and then just kill him/her.
As for jugg and venge: venge is useful if you know when to switch it. I seen in vsing war vs mage/rogue that some switch skyward smash for venge when they are out of mana and then switch back to skill. Smart right?
Mage use mostly 5 skills mostly in vs. Y'all can hate me but I'll tell them c(:
Fireball or gale/ice/light/shield/heal
I played mage pvp for a while in twink and endgame(31/36/41/46) and all i can say is mages just need to do as much damage with crit as they can vsing rogues and tanks. As for rogue i started vs with fire ice light and shield. Swapped one of attack skill for heal if needed but when rogue didn't used nekro then it wasn't even needed to use heal. For warriors gale was( maybe still is i dont know current pvp mage 56) pretty useful.

The reason why mage can be protected and rogue not by same tank is that mage have more skills that protects himself from enemies too and it take extra advantage over rogues. War use charged horn and shield comes. When shield gone they use nekro shield. When nekro shield is gone mage use his shield. Before his shield is halfcd his nekro is already ready so he use it. In same time war heal is ready and when mage nekro is done war nekro is ready to use. Mage shield is again ready to use. If team and mage know timing then mage will be under shield and heal over time whole time of clash. Rogue dont have it and thats why rogue is easier target to aim in clash. No shield = stun. Then mage rush you cause you cant do anything and just die. You can always use razor shield mastery in clash/vs but i dont think it will help much and none gonna waste points for it while nox mastery is much more useful and effective.
Questions to rogues
Answers: If i face skilled sorc in clash i cant even come close to him if he know that shield timing cause I'll die anyway. If he don't know shield timing i can try to risk... use nekro aa pray for stun and then rush mage so i can kill him. It works if you lucky so.
Clash skills : aimed shot/ nox bold / shadow pierce and combat medic.

[yubaraj]

Well everyone class thinks that buffing another "Skill" can be a good solution but it isn't, because Shadow Veil isn't good enough as like asking a warrior to use rally Cry, no one uses it and no one wants to use it ...

I was just giving an example.

BTW do you play pve? If yes then you should have known how op it is. There is no other skill on AL which gives that much buff for the whole party. Btw if you see the duration of veil my suggestion is gonna be op for rogues. Of course it will have some limitation as you need to stay inside the veil.

The problem is rogue are used to 3 attack skill , spam aimed nox pierce lol. If you look at other class. War and sorcerer are using 2 attack most of the time. We are sacrificing another attack skill for survibality.

Time to give up on your 3rd attacks too lol.

[Zeus]

Yap armor got nerfed for rogues.

BTW most people are confused. Rogue damage got buffed in PVP after global nerf. Before global nerf, rogue were affected by damage nerf which also resulted in not getting pet happiness damage buff. Now they are not.

And as far as aimed shot goes their overall damage got buffed. Only thing they lack in 56 team PVP is their survivality.

Instead of nerfing other class. Why don't you give little bit more damage reduction to rogue in some skill. For example give them damage reduction or armor of 30 40 % in shadow veil.

They're not confused. They still hit lower after the nerf as opposed to when they did before nerf. It's just that they were the least affected of all the classes.

[Zeus]

I was just giving an example.

BTW do you play pve? If yes then you should have known how op it is. There is no other skill on AL which gives that much buff for the whole party. Btw if you see the duration of veil my suggestion is gonna be op for rogues. Of course it will have some limitation as you need to stay inside the veil.

The problem is rogue are used to 3 attack skill , spam aimed nox pierce lol. If you look at other class. War and sorcerer are using 2 attack most of the time. We are sacrificing another attack skill for survibality.

Time to give up on your 3rd attacks too lol.

Shadow veil isn't OP, it's rarely used actually. Also, rogues really only have aimed shot. If you try to use SP in a group fight...you will get yourself killed. It's mainly used to rejoin due to the fact that we die a ridiculous amount.

[yubaraj]

Shadow veil isn't OP, it's rarely used actually. Also, rogues really only have aimed shot. If you try to use SP in a group fight...you will get yourself killed. It's mainly used to rejoin due to the fact that we die a ridiculous amount.

Lol.

Due to too much stun in new map, razor shield replaced veil, due to buff/bug fix in trap it replaced veil in past 2 seasons I guess. Before that I regard veil as op skill at least in pve. PvP, I already said rogues use 3 attack skill and they were surviving good enough. Now its not the case as some rogues thinks. So I was suggesting to give some survivability through other skill. It may need different approach or skill set but I am always agreeing on giving some survivability to endgame rogue not twink rogues lol.

BTW I am against class restriction and giving more damage to rogues if my vote counts . lol.

[Befs]

Rogues could already break my shield, and I an by no means maxed, but I still do have very formidable gear.

When you asked how tank vs. mage plays out it's basically this -

Mage runs around tank in circles, getting pulled back in by axe every few moments, while you cycle shield, spamming skills (healing when needed). If the tank pulls you in between shields, then rip. Assuming the tank doesn't catch you between shields, the mage will slowly wear down in a looonnng drawn out fight.

The mage basically tanks the tank.

[Zeus]

Lol.

Due to too much stun in new map, razor shield replaced veil, due to buff/bug fix in trap it replaced veil in past 2 seasons I guess. Before that I regard veil as op skill at least in pve. PvP, I already said rogues use 3 attack skill and they were surviving good enough. Now its not the case as some rogues thinks. So I was suggesting to give some survivability through other skill. It may need different approach or skill set but I am always agreeing on giving some survivability to endgame rogue not twink rogues lol.

BTW I am against class restriction and giving more damage to rogues if my vote counts . lol.

Rogues survive okay when it's not strictly warrior and sorcerer on other side. However, this has become common knowledge and this abused to the point where rogues are no longer needed in PvP.

I also prefer nobody gets nerfed, I agree with you on that.

[Alwarez]

How about buffing razor shield mastery dmg reduction to 40%? Rogue will get first useful mastery+live longer in clash+won`t need to nerf anything

[Luciano Lobo]

I completely disagree. What I suggest for a better survivability for rogues is give them at least 10% of there armor back if not all and after collecting data on PvP make decisions. I also in favor of class restriction on PvP. Stacking warrior is op. Make a 30% dmg reduction instead of 10% in razor shield mastery could be an option too. But please don't over complicate yourself making new formulas about dmg reduction, less seconds of HoR shield, etc. This affects the easy-going playing of the people because they will have to adjust there calculations too which is something that nobody wants. This makes people quit and stop buying platinum and playing the game in general. Don't make this game too complicated with formulas. Another aspect that you will have to take into consideration is the new arcane weapons mechanics. As far as I know mages and rogues they take it easily using them without any other playing mechanics. They equip the weapon and wait for the proc and that's all but the warrior now have to stay in low health and survive!!! to deal damage (if they do damage) but here you are planning to nerf their jugg (look how cool you are), charge their auto-attack and prevent to be stunned or panic. I also suggest more damage of the procs for the warrior new arcane weapons not based damage. Just don't mess up more the PvP aspect of the game. I've just read that you plan to nerf the shield of Nekro? As if everybody owns Nekro in the game but still wants to play PvP. Korruption is the one that should be fixed their AA should not cut off warrior's jugg.

[Crackerzseven]

I may not be the best warr..but I can't beat even a half decent mage...it's not even close..I lose against one with over a 100 less primary than me..if I axe throw one out of mob when I'm aiming for a rogue..I've learnt to leg it..as I won't win unless there 20% hp left and I'm full..against rogues i can win all things being equal it's much closer now they have new weapons..but me vs mage isn't anywhere near as close as me vs rogue....mages totally destroy warrs if there half decent...

[Eatdamage]

Why wont u guys re-evaluate weapons and their procs rather than completely changing class mechanics in all levels...

[Safiras]

Lol.

Due to too much stun in new map, razor shield replaced veil, due to buff/bug fix in trap it replaced veil in past 2 seasons I guess. Before that I regard veil as op skill at least in pve. PvP, I already said rogues use 3 attack skill and they were surviving good enough. Now its not the case as some rogues thinks. So I was suggesting to give some survivability through other skill. It may need different approach or skill set but I am always agreeing on giving some survivability to endgame rogue not twink rogues lol.

BTW I am against class restriction and giving more damage to rogues if my vote counts . lol.

People don't use shadow veil for the following reasons:

1. The damage bonus is 15%, which is the same as that provided by Nekro/Munch Mouth/SnS pet happiness bonus. So if you use Shadow Veil for that purpose, you essentially get nothing due to the inability of percentage buffs to stack and the "highest buff wins" nature of buff-debuff mechanics in the game.

2. If you're using Shadow Veil for the armor buff, there are so many pets that have an armor reduction ability that this buff is negated, because debuffs override all buffs in AL. And don't forget Aimed Shot's and Axe throw's armor reduction ability.

3. If you use Shadow Veil for the hit% reduction ability, this does not work for skills. You will get hit by a sorceror's Lightning or a warrior's Axe Throw all the same.

4. As everyone here has stated, Shadow Veil is a static skill. It only works within its area of effect. Drag the player out of its area and it's useless. Look at all the tanks using Axe Throw in PvP now, especially the good clash tanks with Glintstone set. It is near impossible that they let you stay inside Shadow Veil, especially in wide open zones like the Blood Beach TDM map.

All the reasons above explain why a rogue does not use Shadow Veil. In the context of PvP it is an utterly useless skill. It does nothing to improve the survival of a rogue (or for any other member of the team for that matter) and only decreases a rogue's effectiveness by taking away one skill slot meant for razor shield/noxious bolt.

Anyway, will continue to observe this thread with interest. Still feel that despite all these changes, with Nekro shield nerfed rogued will still have a hard time taking damage in PvP and will remain very vulnerable, but will think harder about the proposed changes beforr I offer my own thoughts.

[Blank119]

Good job sts, this is what im waiting for we should call this the 1st step for a great balance, instead of complaining everytime , we should appreciate them once.

[yubaraj]

People don't use shadow veil for the following reasons:

1. The damage bonus is 15%, which is the same as that provided by Nekro/Munch Mouth/SnS pet happiness bonus. So if you use Shadow Veil for that purpose, you essentially get nothing due to the inability of percentage buffs to stack and the "highest buff wins" nature of buff-debuff mechanics in the game.

2. If you're using Shadow Veil for the armor buff, there are so many pets that have an armor reduction ability that this buff is negated, because debuffs override all buffs in AL. And don't forget Aimed Shot's and Axe throw's armor reduction ability.

3. If you use Shadow Veil for the hit% reduction ability, this does not work for skills. You will get hit by a sorceror's Lightning or a warrior's Axe Throw all the same.

4. As everyone here has stated, Shadow Veil is a static skill. It only works within its area of effect. Drag the player out of its area and it's useless. Look at all the tanks using Axe Throw in PvP now, especially the good clash tanks with Glintstone set. It is near impossible that they let you stay inside Shadow Veil, especially in wide open zones like the Blood Beach TDM map.

All the reasons above explain why a rogue does not use Shadow Veil. In the context of PvP it is an utterly useless skill. It does nothing to improve the survival of a rogue (or for any other member of the team for that matter) and only decreases a rogue's effectiveness by taking away one skill slot meant for razor shield/noxious bolt.

Anyway, will continue to observe this thread with interest. Still feel that despite all these changes, with Nekro shield nerfed rogued will still have a hard time taking damage in PvP and will remain very vulnerable, but will think harder about the proposed changes beforr I offer my own thoughts.

Crystal clear. Its been a long time I quit rogue.

Anyways I was suggesting to give a buff to shadow veil so it can be used in PvP. Or any other skill which can be helpful in clash situation.

Anyways I appreciate devs taking steps to fix the issue.