Honest Opinions about the Current Meta and a little thought on balance (30-40)

[Jyuu1205]

Hey everyone,

So for about the past 3-4 weeks of pvping after coming back from a year gap, I have noticed that the current pvp system became really "fast". What I mean by this is that it's either you nuke or get nuked type of meta.

I want to talk about the pros and cons about this meta and since this is just an opinion of my own, y'all are welcomed to disagree as well. Also, keep in mind that because I have been playing mage class for the most of my pl career, there might be a little bias (Will try my best not to).

Pros:

1) Meta gives a chance for bird users at this level range.

As we already know, birds have been suffering a lot from the past updates and they rarely stood a chance against other mainstream classes at this level range. However, birds with STR weapons now have the potential to fight its way against other mainstream classes, which I think is what birds needed. (Still slightly weak in terms of dodge / armor, but damage seems great).

2) It gives an opportunity for the so called "new generation" players.

Gears have affected pvp a lot in the past and even up to this point. However, unlike the past, where gears significantly determined the winning rates of players, the current meta gives the new players a chance to fight his / her way out against the experienced players. To give an example, a 35 voodoo mage with voodoo set is still able to kill 35 mage with halloween gears (Not so frequently, but can happen if used right). Overall, the amulets compensate the disadvantage in gear stats for the new players.

3) Fast paced PVP

This is something that I find it as a pro and a con simultaneously. Range awareness has become even more significant than the past, to avoid the risk of getting nuked. Fast paced pvp allows games to go by rapidly and allows players to gain faster kills (and deaths as well ofc). It usually takes about 10-30 seconds / each "go" fights (Not all the time, but mostly) and this fast paced pvp offers the new pvp approaching players to gain more experience and the chance to thrive at this level range.

Cons:

1) Amulets

Alright, so amulets are definitely op. The stats are just insane. Maxing out the enchants on 30 amulets can grant you +60 dmg / +60 armor and on top of that, additional stats on your selection of amulets (dodge / crit). To use a bit of analogy, +60 dmg in the perspective of old meta pvp is basically piling up 8-9 ish pink evidence bracers or 12 founders (Scrutinizing only on the damage). What this leads to is a level 30 player being able to nuke down level 40 pallies (Not so often, but is commonly seen nowadays). So the question is, do players have to get this amount of damage to be viable in this pvp range? If 30s can nuke down 35-40 players, what's the point of leveling up to 35 or 40?

2) Damage for all classes.

In relation to the amulets, the damages of all the players have dramatically increased.

To point out some skills of each classes individually, here it goes:

Mage - Drain damage is out of control, out of all the skills. If a 35 mage maxes out on drain, then it can do around 400-500 in crit. Based off of my 35 mage, the health amount is in the high 400s (P.S this means you can miss all your skills and if you land just one single crit drain, you can still win !).

Bear - Beck stomp damage is insane. Idk the specifics of the damage, but hey, grab a 30 bear with couple taunt and raise your beckon / stomp to around 5-6, easy kills. Based off of my experience, even if other classes try their best to kite out the bears, the beck stomp combo is inevitable (Unless you dodge, which happens merely and is luck based). If a 30 bear can nuke down a 40 pally mage, I hope you guys know what that tells you about this pvp range rn.

Fox - I have never played fox, so I hope I don't get criticized for this from the professional fox players (All the respects to you guys), but fox damage is highly op too (Under the condition of landing combos). The cooldown on the dash skills (not just 1, but two dashes) seems a little bit out of balance, but I guess that's what foxes are. Again, based off of my experience, let's say you are playing a game of ffa as other classes besides fox. Let's say you won the first buff fight and since you buffed, your buff is draining out slowly. While you hope to live, you can't! Guess where the fox is after 1-2 seconds, right in front of your face, buffed and ready to nuke you down. Although there is a way to counter this type of situation, it all becomes invalidated if the fox dodges all of your skills while your buff is half away from cooldown. [Too much bias here, my bad]

Birds / rhino - Alright, birds and rhino, I grouped these two classes together because I feel like they are about the same in terms of sustainability. While they are given the chance to nuke when allowed the chance to combo, they can also die easily. I can't really say that these two classes are op, rather they seem more balanced than the other three classes.

So what are some changes that can be made?

1) Nerf the amulets!

Bringing the 3pc rings into lower level pvp was already a huge boost in terms of stats for the majority of the players, but adding amulet stats made slightly off balance pvp into an insane pvp. The damage boost from these amulets should definitely be reconsidered.

2) Reduce the skill damage for the currently OP classes.

I wrote out some particular skills above and I believe that those skills need some nerf (Hopefully damage wise and cooldown wise as well). I hate to restate this, but despite the mage drain being so op, bear beck stomp is just wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much. Hate to be biased here, but Mana shield skill takes about 1-3 seconds to appear, whereas bears' beck stomp can be done within <1 sec. Mages die even before Mana shield goes in, majority of the times and the situation does not get better even if starting off with mana shield.

3) IF balance change is ever made, dodge system should be slightly fixed as well.

Although we know that "Higher number in dodge stats = more chance of dodging," there should be a guideline as to what dodge is and how it works. So basically what I mean by this is that we, as players, don't exactly know how dodge works. What's the difference in 15 dodge vs 17 dodge, despite the difference in numbers? Does it mean that you will avoid 15 hits / 100 times? and does adding 2 more dodge truly yield more dodge overall?

Plat pack bears at 40 can usually dodge all of my skill shots and considering the fact that these bears have 6 beck 6 stomp stomp options, as well as HS / CB to significantly diminish my dmg + dodge rate, there's merely a chance. Although you guys might think, "Why does this mage complain about every single thing? Get a 40 then". I have tried using my 40 mage against 40 bears and the results are usually the same, only different if I am able to land couple dodges against their beckon.

In conclusion:

There are soooooo many other things that can be listed out here, but to narrow down to a conclusion, amulets definitely need some nerf. Although changing the pvp system in just a matter of couple days is impossible, I believe that when the creators update the gears for pvp, they should test it out first and see if the balance is there or not. Tracing down the statistics of how each class does against other classes might be another option. Active feedbacks from the devs and players should be combined together to make this happen, but I am a little disappointed that this isn't happening.

Thank you for your time in reading this and feel free to state what you guys feel about pvp in the (30-40) ranges or other pvp ranges as well.

Best regards,
Jun.

[Congeniality]

Cinco has been balancing new items and mechanics around endgame PvP. The lower levels are getting more and more unstable due to this, but I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing. I highly suggest you make your way towards 105, it's a lot of fun .

[xzLegendszx]

Cinco has been balancing new items and mechanics around endgame PvP. The lower levels are getting more and more unstable due to this, but I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing. I highly suggest you make your way towards 105, it's a lot of fun .

Yup i agree.

Gesendet von meinem SM-G960F mit Tapatalk

[MageFFA]

Yup i agree.

Gesendet von meinem SM-G960F mit Tapatalk

I view this as a big problem down here. With every Buff/Nerf that cinco does to endgame it does effect gameplay even more in twink zones. Take for example the "TLC" StS did for fox. Increased the damage ON A ALREADY OP CLASS by 25%. It went from foxes killing with Rabid ham to foxes killing with just rabid.

Let's not the forget the devastating effect this had on rhino, a class that was already terrible from a nerf that happened years prior. Following the 100/105 cap nerfs on rhino, the class is now the weakest link in PvP. Max Charge Max Red and Max Tempt is now obsolete even with 60 dmg amulet as the class is still limited to what it can kill. I've seen mages tank or just counter nuke everything a rhino dishes out to them. How did we go from 1 charge 3 red and 5 tempt being a solid build in 30 during 2013-2014, to now failing even with max buffs, damage skills, and OP amulets.

As for Endgame. Players are on a hunting spree looking to get everything they view OP nerfed. Just the other day I saw players pushing for another Nerf on a already beat class. If we can't even acknowdge that Dex procs are OP and should be fixed, instead of a class is OP and should be fixed, whats the entire point of playing it at all?

[Bats]

A good suggestion is to debuff level 30 amulet enchantments down to 50% of their current enchantments (e.g. 60 armor amulet enchantments get 30 armor enchantments). It solves most problems (from the high differences in attributes between level 25 players and level 30 players as well as the high damage problems that users above were experiencing above) for everyone.

[MageFFA]

A good suggestion is to debuff level 30 amulet enchantments down to 50% of their current enchantments (e.g. 60 armor amulet enchantments get 30 armor enchantments). It solves most problems (from the high differences in attributes between level 25 players and level 30 players as well as the high damage problems that users above were experiencing above) for everyone.

Or just remove them from PvP overall.

[burntoutdex]

In short, i agree with everything you said, Jun.

Birds are still weak relative to other classes - a good +60dmg mage will win 100% of the time (from what i've seen.) All birds have ever needed to compete is a dex weapon with 13m range and a damage output similar to that of the iceberg hammer. This would allow dex birds to be played like that of levels 45+, honestly, i think that's the only adjustment that would be needed for birds.

However this would potentially lead to their damage output at range being similar to that of a bear; it would need to be adjusted accordingly. Shivering X-bow has too low damage, even with amulet; hence why str is used.

Perhaps a shivering helmet and amulet could be made so that the created set bonus would give Xbow increased damage.

A good mage will never let a bird get into the 4m range (auto,) whilst saving their heal for root so that they [the birds] can never land an auto attack. If a bird gets into auto range, they generally manage to win; but in the current meta, both classes played optimally, without a strong dex weapon, mages win every time. Thats just my opinion, like ive said before, there are many better birds than me; this is just my
opinion.

I think bears dodge needs to be slightly toned down, so that it is possible to land skills such as repulse or fire. Without those skills landing, from what ive seen, leads to a bear landing one auto (technically 3) plus a smashed combo, and one shotting.

Foxes are fine, they never really had a place with the current PL mechanics, changing anything will render them useless or overpowered. Sure, i agree, they have an insane damage output - but after their evasion wears off, they are easily nukeable. Imo they dont need adjusting at 30-40z

Mages need a drain nerf, maybe a crit nerf, other than that, you probably have better ideas than me

Unfortunately, this game is continually beig geared and updated towards endgame - where the vasst majority of the playerbase is. This means twink levels suffer greatly, illustrated above and ingame.. This is unlikely to change, however, hopefully some things can be fixed so that twinking isn't left in shambles - again


Just my two cents. Excuse any grammatical errors, it's latr at night and i have barely slept at all this week.

I hope this makes some sense

[Bats]

Most likely there can be no 'nerf on classes' and Pocket Legend's game developer wouldn't be interested in removing level 30 amulets when it already exists.

The best solution would be to debuff the amulets. It seems like there was a miscalculation without thinking about the imbalance between level 25 players and level 30 players inside of a hosted player vs. player combat arena (because +60 bonus is too much; maybe 30 was chosen per each bonus enchantment because of the level? maybe it should be half to equal level 30).

[Jyuu1205]

Most likely there can be no 'nerf on classes' and Pocket Legend's game developer wouldn't be interested in removing level 30 amulets when it already exists.

The best solution would be to debuff the amulets. It seems like there was a miscalculation without thinking about the imbalance between level 25 players and level 30 players inside of a hosted player vs. player combat arena (because +60 bonus is too much; maybe 30 was chosen per each bonus enchantment because of the level? maybe it should be half to equal level 30).

Hey box, even halving the stats on the amys would be still insufficient in maintaining the balance of pvp. Removing the amys from 30-40 pvp should happen asap, even the additional +10 dmg can make so much difference.

[Jyuu1205]

Cinco has been balancing new items and mechanics around endgame PvP. The lower levels are getting more and more unstable due to this, but I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing. I highly suggest you make your way towards 105, it's a lot of fun .

Thanks for mentioning this. I am glad that endgame pvp is getting their balance, but I don't see a reason why this should cause an imbalance in the lower level pvp. Yes, players can move up to endgame pvp and play in the "more balanced" pvp there, but I am seeing that gears are not that cheap overall and it takes a while to level as well. I don't find moving to upper level is a solution to this ongoing problem, just a thought.

[Bats]

Hey box, even halving the stats on the amys would be still insufficient in maintaining the balance of pvp. Removing the amys from 30-40 pvp should happen asap, even the additional +10 dmg can make so much difference.

The question is - would Cinco remove it? Sorry, it's not happening, box.

[Jyuu1205]

In short, i agree with everything you said, Jun.

Birds are still weak relative to other classes - a good +60dmg mage will win 100% of the time (from what i've seen.) All birds have ever needed to compete is a dex weapon with 13m range and a damage output similar to that of the iceberg hammer. This would allow dex birds to be played like that of levels 45+, honestly, i think that's the only adjustment that would be needed for birds.

However this would potentially lead to their damage output at range being similar to that of a bear; it would need to be adjusted accordingly. Shivering X-bow has too low damage, even with amulet; hence why str is used.

Perhaps a shivering helmet and amulet could be made so that the created set bonus would give Xbow increased damage.

A good mage will never let a bird get into the 4m range (auto,) whilst saving their heal for root so that they [the birds] can never land an auto attack. If a bird gets into auto range, they generally manage to win; but in the current meta, both classes played optimally, without a strong dex weapon, mages win every time. Thats just my opinion, like ive said before, there are many better birds than me; this is just my
opinion.

I think bears dodge needs to be slightly toned down, so that it is possible to land skills such as repulse or fire. Without those skills landing, from what ive seen, leads to a bear landing one auto (technically 3) plus a smashed combo, and one shotting.

Foxes are fine, they never really had a place with the current PL mechanics, changing anything will render them useless or overpowered. Sure, i agree, they have an insane damage output - but after their evasion wears off, they are easily nukeable. Imo they dont need adjusting at 30-40z

Mages need a drain nerf, maybe a crit nerf, other than that, you probably have better ideas than me

Unfortunately, this game is continually beig geared and updated towards endgame - where the vasst majority of the playerbase is. This means twink levels suffer greatly, illustrated above and ingame.. This is unlikely to change, however, hopefully some things can be fixed so that twinking isn't left in shambles - again


Just my two cents. Excuse any grammatical errors, it's latr at night and i have barely slept at all this week.

I hope this makes some sense

Thanks for your opinion! I do agree on most of your parts, but I am still iffy on the fox damage. Overall, dex items should be given a slight tone up, so that each classes can play what they were designated to play, accordingly to the stats.

For bears, it's just not about dodge, the class overall needs some nerf on beck stomp damage overall lol As stated in the post, I had never seen a 30 bear nuking a 40 pally in my past pvp career. If the pally was a beginner at pally, I wouldn't say much, but this pally has a wide experience overall.

[burntoutdex]

Thanks for your opinion! I do agree on most of your parts, but I am still iffy on the fox damage. Overall, dex items should be given a slight tone up, so that each classes can play what they were designated to play, accordingly to the stats.

For bears, it's just not about dodge, the class overall needs some nerf on beck stomp damage overall lol As stated in the post, I had never seen a 30 bear nuking a 40 pally in my past pvp career. If the pally was a beginner at pally, I wouldn't say much, but this pally has a wide experience overall.

Dont get me wrong, i agree with you on fox. I think they have a very situational large amount of damage; depending on how they are played. Like i mentioned before, they have no place in the game with pl's mechanics - that's just the way it is.

Maybe their damage should be toned down slightly, i'm not really sure to be honest.

On the note with bears, i agree with you, looking at it again.


Obviously not trying to start an argument with you, please dont take my blunt responses to be of that nature. just adding to thread so that hopefully this all gets fixed, with our suggestions considered accordingly.

[burntoutdex]

*not trying to derail your thread, Jun. I just feel it's easier to post here as opposed to clogging forums with a new thread on a similar issue.

Tinkered with bird builds for about an hour or two.

Whilst birds is fairly consistent at killing itself, foxes and bears, they struggle immensely against mages due to the nature of 6drain coupled with +60damage amulets.

The only issue vs bears is that if you dont dodge/kite beckon, you die. Smashed combo also needs a fix

Currently, taking into account all possible items, birds have between 500 and 620hp. As of right now, drain deals atleast 400 on a crit (6bom.) Due to PL's mechanics, a skill also as far as i am aware also sends off an auto attack as well. Mages pins and brainfreeze wands do about 100damage each. This means that by the time drain hits, the bird is alteady dead. I can literally dodge every other skill and auto, but if drain hits, i die instantly. it needs a fix, and fast.

Below are images that i think adequately demonstrate my point - drain needs to be fixed. Last image shows my hp compared to drain damage. Renamed in between fights, current ign is 'itsburningdex'

I still think a dex weapon with 13m range and .76speed and similar damage to lizard leg or titanice hammer, maybe less; just more than what is already on the dex xbows. this would help give birds the buff they need.

edit: just tried pure dex for awhile. it has a lot of dps output, moreso than str imo - it still isnt enough to kill mages, and bears are still very dodge/luck based

[Basauli]

Wouldn't a armor amulet counter the damage amulet to where it balances them out?

[Xyzther]

Thanks for mentioning this. I am glad that endgame pvp is getting their balance, but I don't see a reason why this should cause an imbalance in the lower level pvp. Yes, players can move up to endgame pvp and play in the "more balanced" pvp there, but I am seeing that gears are not that cheap overall and it takes a while to level as well. I don't find moving to upper level is a solution to this ongoing problem, just a thought.

As much as I like 105 pvp, we can’t simply neglect lower pvp levels. If we simply tell twinks to move onto endgame and forget twinkling I don’t feel it’s really fair. Kinda like when AL was released and PL didn’t get many updates, people were saying to just drop PL and move onto AL. Hopefully when Cinco releases this new update next week that should have 105 as balanced as it’s been so far, he could spend a little time with lower levels

Edit: wow I said simply twice in 2 sentences, I’m so original

[Rescind]

Wouldn't a armor amulet counter the damage amulet to where it balances them out?

The thing is if you use an armor amulet on a bird, you will be throwing paper balls at a mage. The only class without a damage buff is a bird and the differences in damage is pretty clear at lower levels

[burntoutdex]

The thing is if you use an armor amulet on a bird, you will be throwing paper balls at a mage. The only class without a damage buff is a bird and the differences in damage is pretty clear at lower levels

To add to this, a 30/30 amulet just increases the amount of time you can throw paper balls at mages before you inevitably die to a drain/lightning/fire critical (they all one shot, lol.)

With a 55+ damage amulet you barely have enough damage to dps a mage down in 4 arrows, assuming you get atleast 2crits (break>blind>rep>blast.) However, this is only after the first 12 seconds of a fight, in which Blessing of Vitality wears off for i think 6 seconds. However, in this time, a mage is still able to quickly kill you with drain>fire before you can use 4 arrows, due to the seemingly faster gcd on mage skills (if not faster gcd, arrows have travel time, fire does not.)

The only viable way to kill mages now is to kite with 4+ repulse (3 if you have lower ping) and then nuke after BoV wears off. However, this is risky as any of the mages 3 main damage skills (drain>fire/light) will one shot you almost instantly. Drain may take longer to kill due to the .4-.6 delay, but by the time you see/hear the drain animation or sound, you're already dead because of fire

I don't even use Shattering Scream anymore, because the instant you step into 8m to combo, lightning will inevitably crit you and you will die. Plus, it's just an extra button and even more time waiting for gcd before you can do extra damage. Cruel Blast damage is also only ~200 with a critical, hardly worth it when you could have pressed repulse instead.

Didn't mean to ramble, but Rescind is right, 30/30 is the equivalent of throwing sand at a mage

People have suggested giving birds a health buff, however, i think personally that this just prolongs the time you get to throw wool at a mage. Vs other classes excluding mage, the health buff would be a bit overpowered, as birds are just as good as the other classes.

Not sure what the best solution is at this point.

tl;dr: don't throw paper balls at mages when you could throw wool instead, use a +60damage amulet! then simply wait 12seconds and then pray you dodge everything and spam break>blind>repulse>blast (you'll be dead by blind, but you tried your best.)

PS - nerfbaconstamp

[Rescind]

To add to this, a 30/30 amulet just increases the amount of time you can throw paper balls at mages before you inevitably die to a drain/lightning/fire critical (they all one shot, lol.)

With a 55+ damage amulet you barely have enough damage to dps a mage down in 4 arrows, assuming you get atleast 2crits (break>blind>rep>blast.) However, this is only after the first 12 seconds of a fight, in which Blessing of Vitality wears off for i think 6 seconds. However, in this time, a mage is still able to quickly kill you with drain>fire before you can use 4 arrows, due to the seemingly faster gcd on mage skills (if not faster gcd, arrows have travel time, fire does not.)

The only viable way to kill mages now is to kite with 4+ repulse (3 if you have lower ping) and then nuke after BoV wears off. However, this is risky as any of the mages 3 main damage skills (drain>fire/light) will one shot you almost instantly. Drain may take longer to kill due to the .4-.6 delay, but by the time you see/hear the drain animation or sound, you're already dead because of fire

I don't even use Shattering Scream anymore, because the instant you step into 8m to combo, lightning will inevitably crit you and you will die. Plus, it's just an extra button and even more time waiting for gcd before you can do extra damage. Cruel Blast damage is also only ~200 with a critical, hardly worth it when you could have pressed repulse instead.

Didn't mean to ramble, but Rescind is right, 30/30 is the equivalent of throwing sand at a mage

People have suggested giving birds a health buff, however, i think personally that this just prolongs the time you get to throw wool at a mage. Vs other classes excluding mage, the health buff would be a bit overpowered, as birds are just as good as the other classes.

Not sure what the best solution is at this point.

tl;dr: don't throw paper balls at mages when you could throw wool instead, use a +60damage amulet! then simply wait 12seconds and then pray you dodge everything and spam break>blind>repulse>blast (you'll be dead by blind, but you tried your best.)

PS - nerfbaconstamp

Give bird damage buff like the rest of the classes but scale down the damage on skills so it doesn't get out of hand in endgame? Really hard to balance bird because damage buff can throw endgame into a worse pit of despair

[burntoutdex]

Give bird damage buff like the rest of the classes but scale down the damage on skills so it doesn't get out of hand in endgame? Really hard to balance bird because damage buff can throw endgame into a worse pit of despair

focus getting raw damage instead of hit%, or evade getting damage instead if armor could be good. But there would be no way to implement it, as it would ruin level 17 and also endgame

not sure what the bet solution is