The future of PL ... long term recommendations; my most important post for this year

[WhoIsThis]

I understand the point, but I still believe execution would be the problem. You said they could do something to prevent one person using two devices and therefore being both sides of the "contest". But this doesn't address the very real problem of two legitimately different devices used by two different people from gaming the system. Think about all those hard-core farming guilds that exist now. You think they'd hesitate for a second to have two member agree to take a dive in PvP if they thought it would get them a faster route to pinks? So in the end, there would have to be a lot of effort put into making PvP not the "easy way" to pick drops even with "two device" protection mechanisms.

I get what the goal is and why you suggested it. If there were a way to do it, it might even be better for PL. It's just never going to work in practice.

If they don't want to suffer an inordinate amount of deaths - it would make no logical sense to do this.

The amount of time it would take for a person to die and respawn is more or less the same as it would take in a 3v3 FFA. The rate of death would be no more than that of an FFA. In fact, it may actually be less, because there are only 2 people and one is not fighting back. Thus, it would make very little sense for a guild to choose to do this. Plus, the drop rates would not be any more than they would get in PvE for a given period of time, making this even less logical. Unless you prefer PvP, you would not want to do it.

The nature of how you responded does make me want to ask, how much PvP experience do you have? If the answer is less than thousand kills or haven't seen an FFA game (ex: you've always played 1v1 .... which many new players unfortunately do), you probably haven't seen enough. 1v1's are slow-paced. FFA and close quarters CTF though ... is another thing entirely.

[Conradin]

We NEED skill trees. Our skill set ups are lame atm. Ellyidol has a few great discussion threads on this and skill tress would allow us to truly have pales and inters and the such.



And i agree- We've needed pvp rewards ever since it came out. I think you should pm this to the devs.

And for the above problem You cant kill the same person more than 4 times in a row in 57 minutes or the same person 12 times in 15 minutes (the numbers might be bigger when implemented

[WhoIsThis]

We NEED skill trees. Our skill set ups are lame atm. Ellyidol has a few great discussion threads on this and skill tress would allow us to truly have pales and inters and the such.



And i agree- We've needed pvp rewards ever since it came out. I think you should pm this to the devs.

And for the above problem You cant kill the same person more than 4 times in a row in 57 minutes or the same person 12 times in 15 minutes (the numbers might be bigger when implemented

The drop probabilities would have to be weighted.

How it would work is simple. When a person dies, 3 types of people get a chance to get a drop:

1. The killer - for simply killing
2. The victim - we don't want to penalize victims for being in PvP; we want to reward them for their efforts
3. Anybody else that did damage within 30 seconds of the target's death. Too often pallies, warbirds, and bears do damage but don't get the kill. They should not be penalized for this.


In FFA, this would work out.


Now suppose player A has killed B. C and D did damage to B as well. All four players have an equal chance of getting a drop.

1. Do I get a drop at all? This will be in the same amount as the junk drops you get from killing mobs. Like mobs in PvE, just because you were in 1-3 doesn't mean you are assured a drop.
2. Now chances are you will get a junk drop. Do I roll for a good drop? The drop chances must be carefully weighed.

1 hour of PvE should give an equal (or within 10%) chance of getting a rare pink of the level of the player that got the drop (scaled drops).


In CTF, the chances of getting a drop are somewhat reduced. To compensate, you get drops when your team scores a goal. You will do have almost as high a chance of getting a drop when you make kills. This is to prevent the game from penalizing players in long CTF matches. The number of kills is roughly proportional to a CTF match's length.

Also, there will NOT be messages of who got what. You learn what you got either at the end of a game or upon exit (or if you disconnect, when you log in again). Messages of who received what would be too distracting in fast paced PvP.

[WhoIsThis]

What would be your opinion on some possible veterans awards?

I am actually opposed to them at this point. When the founder's cap came out, I opposed on the grounds that it might alter twink warfare dramatically (the stats don't matter as much at higher levels). Over time though, I have become more ambivalent on the matter - empirical evidence suggests that what I feared did not come to pass.

The persistence vanity though I did support. Unlike just "being" here, I felt that the vanity was for something that was worth doing (83,840 xp, of which I grinded on 2 characters and at the time used no platinum elixirs). I have voiced my opinions in a thread in the PvP section on the vanity. Admittedly, the sense of accomplishment has now been diminished in the later levels because it is a platinum grindfest, but now it becomes an item that you paid to have and thus are entitled to have the bonus. It is entirely optional.

At this point, I oppose the idea of vanity rewards because it is more of a "being" sort of thing rather than accomplishing something or paying for something. I would however support things like that special shield that came out when the main spine became free, because it was something paid for.

[Survivorfan]

This was an extremely good read in my mind, and I hope a dev sees this because you have some awesome points in there. On thing though, I know that you say you don't like recycled content but one of the devs said something along the line of, the reason for recycled content is because it takes up less space. I think that they should split the game however. I think a solution would make a game for the levels up to 50, then make a new game that is also free, and has levels 50-66 for now. This would allow the game to have more in it and if you wanted to switch, it is literally a click of a button.

[MightyMicah]

@fusionstrike & Whoisthis I disagree with you whoisthis in that there won't be people farming for pinks in pvp. I bieve it will be abbused. I think however that if it was set up right, you would be correct. I may not have the idea, but its as simple as making pve slightly more efficiant farming than pvp. Thus, the pvp addicts (such as myself) who simply hate grinding for pinks, could get a lesser set that gets the job done all the while improving with each new pink earned.

Another thing that needs to be realized is that pinks overall rate will increase. Afterall, if theres 2 places being "farmed" then theres almost double the pinks. (i say almost because pvp wouldn't be as fast.) what's this mean? It means pinks will lose value and market prices will go down. Personally I would love that, but i know many would disagree. The only solution would be lowering drop rates in pve and pvp. No hardcore pve player would accept that.

Perhaps there's other solutions but I can't think of any atm.

~MM

[RedRyder]

Oh my jeebus. I'm never one to read long posts, but I read yours entirely and I don't regret it! Hopefully this will all get put into consideration at least.

[mrnofunz]

Thank you for your words...I wouldn't have said it any differently. We need more from STS. Some of us have spent a large sum of money, comparatively to other games, for recycled content. If change doesn't come soon...

[WhoIsThis]

@fusionstrike & Whoisthis I disagree with you whoisthis in that there won't be people farming for pinks in pvp. I bieve it will be abbused. I think however that if it was set up right, you would be correct. I may not have the idea, but its as simple as making pve slightly more efficiant farming than pvp. Thus, the pvp addicts (such as myself) who simply hate grinding for pinks, could get a lesser set that gets the job done all the while improving with each new pink earned.

Another thing that needs to be realized is that pinks overall rate will increase. Afterall, if theres 2 places being "farmed" then theres almost double the pinks. (i say almost because pvp wouldn't be as fast.) what's this mean? It means pinks will lose value and market prices will go down. Personally I would love that, but i know many would disagree. The only solution would be lowering drop rates in pve and pvp. No hardcore pve player would accept that.

Perhaps there's other solutions but I can't think of any atm.

~MM

At first, there will be balance issues and abuse issues. Many patches will be needed for sure. In the long run though, if the payoff does not exceed that of PvE, there would be no venue to abuse it with.

As you said, if there are better ideas for a PvP reward system ... I'm all ears.

[MightyMicah]

Agreed

[WhoIsThis]

It remains to be seen whether or not PvP rewards will even be implemented.

[Duped]

Lots of great ideas, here's my thoughts on a few things:

Pvp rewards? I think getting xp for a kill would be a plausible idea, just like pve, except our mobs have much greater health and less actual intelligence . I don't favor premium pinks dropping, I agree in theory its nice, but in practice would fail.

Segregation of games is a horrible idea IMO. There is already mechanisms in place to lock games, and that needs no changing. Also, when you say that levels should get progressively more difficult, I think the perfect balance was Sewers. In Sewers, bad players slowed things down, and good players sped things up (then skill point distribution also made a big difference, where it doesn't now). I remember laughing because a good group would clear the level as fast as any group on 4x, it just took longer to kill bosses without the elixirs. Then, skill mattered, and not just who wanted to buy elixirs. The thing is that people will still buy elixirs to hit level cap on their toons, but if the bosses and levels were also enjoyable without elixirs than those like me, who primarily only buy things I can stash with plat, and use patience to level up would be happy too.


I did read all of this, and all the related posts. I think you made some excellent points, however, here is one big problem with your theory. It's all based on the fact that STS will suffer because of people leaving and therefore less profits, etc. I don't have any data, but we both seem to believe that STS is making more profit than ever. If that is indeed the case, than, anything they do to harm elixir sales (the golden goose) is negative to the company until actual numbers show this model is not working. If their sales are increasing, than why should they stop when by and large, consumers are still buying?

I, like you and others that have been around for some time, see growing discontent, but that is among players like me who remember 15-20 plat dungeons and 5-10 plat vanities. The new generation does not know those days, and they are comfortable with the current environ, and many of the older players have simply adjusted right along with the new changes.

[Snakespeare]

With respect, and I really mean that as this is an excellent thread, I do not want the game altered to make PvP a central part of the game. It is an add-on, I never liked it, and I wish it would just go away. That's my 2 cents. I would probably have to leave if they started dropping pinks in PvP or giving XP. IMO, they should never have added it. It is the place, from my limited experience, where it's OK to be mean.

I also feel the same way about elixirs. I wish they didn't exist. It's mildly cheating, IMO, and giving those who use them special privileges will be the death of this game.

But I want to reiterate that I really appreciate the thoughtful attitudes in this thread.

[shanmarie33]

Wow. Brilliant. Thank you for taking the time to write out what so many others are thinking. I do not post, but read and enjoy the forums very much.

I adore the idea of a monthly subscription. As a paying customer, I too, have felt taken advantage of. It was a choice to purchase plat for elixers, but one I may not have made if I knew the xp per level was going to be made permanent or the earlier-than-announced fang release. Not to mention, needing one just to surive the mobs or bosses without dying constantly or using 100 pots per run.

I hope STS really makes some big changes to the business plan. We are not just players. We are customers. We are supportive fans. We are Alterra.

66 pure mage
65 pure bird
65 pure bear
and a few others inbetween

[WhoIsThis]

With respect, and I really mean that as this is an excellent thread, I do not want the game altered to make PvP a central part of the game. It is an add-on, I never liked it, and I wish it would just go away. That's my 2 cents. I would probably have to leave if they started dropping pinks in PvP or giving XP. IMO, they should never have added it. It is the place, from my limited experience, where it's OK to be mean.

I also feel the same way about elixirs. I wish they didn't exist. It's mildly cheating, IMO, and giving those who use them special privileges will be the death of this game.

But I want to reiterate that I really appreciate the thoughtful attitudes in this thread.

In a sense, what I am suggesting will make PvP "go away". I think it would breathe new life into the game.

PvP players will have less reasons to interact with PvE players if they had the ability to farm everything they needed in PvE.

Edit:
On that note, I should point out that there are PvP players that wish that PvE would just disappear. I know I'm not going to convince you, but right now, PvE players have a sense of a superiority complex and PvP players do as well. Both regulars view their main game as "superior" and wish the other one was marginalized.

I think that the best solution is to accept that each side has the right to exist and different needs that need to be catered to. "Wishing" PvP would go away isn't going to solve anything.

[Moogerfooger]

We NEED skill trees. Our skill set ups are lame atm. Ellyidol has a few great discussion threads on this and skill tress would allow us to truly have pales and inters and the such.

I think the introduction of skill trees would be the single most game-changing thing - for both PvE and PvP, for different but valuable reasons - that STS could do to inject some new life into the game, beyond simply cranking out (in my opinion) slightly underwhelming campaigns just to keep us interested. I like relatively quick updates, but would rather wait a bit longer for something epic like AO3. Skill trees, even done like FailLoft's Order & Chaos, would be a blast. Each race/class had two different types of trees (for example, Rangers could go with an Archer path or an Assassin path) and part of the fun was figuring out what skills did what in relation to others.

It might be tricky to set up and balance initially, but man would it be a breath of fresh air instead of everyone running around at end-game with eseentially the same build like we have now, as far as skills go.

[WhoIsThis]

Lots of great ideas, here's my thoughts on a few things:

Pvp rewards? I think getting xp for a kill would be a plausible idea, just like pve, except our mobs have much greater health and less actual intelligence . I don't favor premium pinks dropping, I agree in theory its nice, but in practice would fail.

Segregation of games is a horrible idea IMO. There is already mechanisms in place to lock games, and that needs no changing. Also, when you say that levels should get progressively more difficult, I think the perfect balance was Sewers. In Sewers, bad players slowed things down, and good players sped things up (then skill point distribution also made a big difference, where it doesn't now). I remember laughing because a good group would clear the level as fast as any group on 4x, it just took longer to kill bosses without the elixirs. Then, skill mattered, and not just who wanted to buy elixirs. The thing is that people will still buy elixirs to hit level cap on their toons, but if the bosses and levels were also enjoyable without elixirs than those like me, who primarily only buy things I can stash with plat, and use patience to level up would be happy too.

The thing is, suppose you have a person who has a 4X. They want to level fast. They want don't want non-combo elixir people. At the same time, they want more 4X people to level, but there aren't enough friends on. At this point, the 4X user has no choice but to start a game and hope more elixir users will go on. Basically, they have to ask every non-elixir user to leave or boot them until they get a full party. Plus, there is no label saying "this is a 4X only run"; segregation would help the 4X user. They won't get their money's worth and that is bad for STS; they may feel disinclined to spend in the future. Locking games does not offer any solutions for this - in fact a player would not want to lock a game in that situation in an attempt to get more people with elixirs to join up.

At the same time, we have players that hate the elixirs with a passion. They can have games with 0 chance of any elixir people intruding on their slower runs.

The problem right now is that we can't match people's desires. There are people joining in 4X runs and getting themselves booted. There are also 4X players who do not feel as if they are getting the best run possible - a run with 4x runners only. By giving an option to segregate, it should prevent bootings and lead to more productive runs. The host always has the choice of course to create a non-segregated game.


Edit:
Finally, remember that STS needs to give people a reason to buy elixirs. You don't want elixirs. You clearly hate them. But, STS does. If elixir buyers get a private game, they're more likely to feel that they've gotten their money's worth. STS wins and the player wins. With the option to segregate, you won't ever have to deal with such players.

I did read all of this, and all the related posts. I think you made some excellent points, however, here is one big problem with your theory. It's all based on the fact that STS will suffer because of people leaving and therefore less profits, etc. I don't have any data, but we both seem to believe that STS is making more profit than ever. If that is indeed the case, than, anything they do to harm elixir sales (the golden goose) is negative to the company until actual numbers show this model is not working. If their sales are increasing, than why should they stop when by and large, consumers are still buying?

I, like you and others that have been around for some time, see growing discontent, but that is among players like me who remember 15-20 plat dungeons and 5-10 plat vanities. The new generation does not know those days, and they are comfortable with the current environ, and many of the older players have simply adjusted right along with the new changes.

That is arguably the best counterpoint I have heard do far.

Presently:

1. The older players are unhappy and some have discussed leaving, including many that are loyal; I think that it wouldn't take much to push some of them out

2. Depending on the demographic, younger players ability to endlessly spend may be limited; need a demographic study of the younger people to confirm or deny this one

But yes, everyone seems to spend more for now. The problem is that milking right now might lead to less happy customers in the long run, even among the newer players that do burn plat. They may not adjust - they may conclude that this game is simply too expensive or deliberately try to restrict their platinum sales, which leads to a less good game in the long run. If large numbers of people do adjust though ... then yes, that would be a flaw in my argument. But there would have to be enough players to make up for the ones that have left or will ration platinum and the fact that there are players leaving could inhibit future growth rates.

Compounding the problem is that when a game begins to lose its most loyal players, from experience with other MMOs, things can become a ghost town pretty quickly. I know it will sound hard to believe, but from experience, games can crash surprisingly rapidly (and in the span of less than 1 week). The only other outcome possible in such a situation is that a bunch of for lack of a better term, noobs come in and the whole MMO declines because the quality of player is now extremely poor to the point where it is no longer worth playing.

[WhoIsThis]

I think the introduction of skill trees would be the single most game-changing thing - for both PvE and PvP, for different but valuable reasons - that STS could do to inject some new life into the game, beyond simply cranking out (in my opinion) slightly underwhelming campaigns just to keep us interested. I like relatively quick updates, but would rather wait a bit longer for something epic like AO3. Skill trees, even done like FailLoft's Order & Chaos, would be a blast. Each race/class had two different types of trees (for example, Rangers could go with an Archer path or an Assassin path) and part of the fun was figuring out what skills did what in relation to others.

It might be tricky to set up and balance initially, but man would it be a breath of fresh air instead of everyone running around at end-game with eseentially the same build like we have now, as far as skills go.

I'd have to agree that something needs to be done to spice up game play.

Either skill trees or perhaps something radically new like a completely different environment for which the players can interact in.

So far, 2 of the big suggestions that have been proposed here, skill trees, and PvP rewards are major changes that will need plenty of balancing.


I think that we need to suggest a combination of minor and major changes.

[zeusabe]

I'll just focus in on the PVP-looting idea and pay-to-play suggestion. Just to clarify, the PVP-loot isn't unique as it has been done in the past especially on PVP servers where you can literally kill anyone, anywhere except in towns and villages and get rewarded for it. I, myself, actively plays an MMO in a private-PPV server so I know exactly the pro's and con's of it as far as my own personal experience (not claiming as general fact). I understand that you are not suggesting a conversion from PVE server to PVP server, but at least I know what it's like to kill another player for loot. With that experience let me share some of my assessments: There is a reason why PVP servers are mostly "private" and that is because the system is flawed, even without being a seasoned player, you can easily pinpoint it. With that system, I can simply talk to another player and kill each other repeatedly to gain "infinite" loots or for as long as both of you want to kill each other, that has been the problem that most PVP servers face, everyone became "God-like" therefore it destroyed the entire economy and PVP servers became battle of numbers in FFA's than skill. Which brings me to my second analysis, PL is not ready for "numbers", they cannot even have instances with more than 50 people in it, their servers simply cannot hold it. There is a reason why we have a 3v3 or 5v5 mechanic, that's because, unlike other MMO's with "bigger" servers, they cannot hold an open FFA map with higher population. So anyway, going back, item leeching will be practiced to its greatest form. Your suggestion will ultimately lead to a PVP-oriented game which the game itself is not ready, definitely, not ready, both in in-game mechanic and technical aspect. I'll leave my opinion on that note, I'll see what you'll have to say. Going to your second point, the pay-to-play subscription, you do realize that venturing into that market will put PL along with the likes of World of Warcraft, Rift, Darkfall, Eve Online, Aion...etc? these titans will eat PL alive. Personally, I will not pay for this game on a monthly, it's a rip-off if you will compare it to other pay-to-play games. Even Old pay-to-play games are better than PL. One of the major cloaks protecting PL from huge criticism is because of the fact that it's free and it's in a mobile/tablet hence technical limits, the moment you remove that cloak, the game is gonna get clobbered by game critics and hardcore players alike because now you will require people to spend hard-earned money to spend in a game, they will have to justify the $$$ they will charge and after playing other pay-to-play games, I've not seen a single thing in this game that will make me pay for it monthly (my own opinion) over the other ones. This game might be one of the best innovation in 2010, but no way in hell is it on the same level of existing titans in pay-to-play, IMO, the game will die painfully if they do that. The bar is simply too high in pay-to-play market as of the moment, and PL isn't really touching that market right now because they know they can't, the game is geared for casual not for hardcore, requiring people to pay is calling out hardcore market. The logic will be like this, "Why would I pay for PL if I can pay for WoW or Rift or Aion", the moment that sinks in, it's over. Anyway, that's it on my opinions. I'll reserve others after you address these. Thanks. XD

[Moogerfooger]

As far as skills go, and I know you and others have debated what to do with skills, perhaps another solution, if they will not do skill trees due to size limitations or whatever, is to raise max skill level to 8. But, of course if we did that, some skills would be overwhelmingly powerful.

Maybe, for example....increase max level of skills to 8.

In the past (and I am making these numbers up, not accurate, just for illustrative purposes):

Say Drain Life at lvl 61 was 430-500, currently maxed at 6.
Say at 66 it is 470-550, currently maxed at 6
Say at lvl 71 it is.....500-580....IF maxed to lvl 8. Keeping it at 6 (out of a 8 point max scale) would drop it back down to say 400-450.

You could have some varied builds now, without having the new max level of 8 being ridiculous. It would force players to re-think skill builds, without radically altering the skills if it is not possible/STS chooses (unfortunately) not to implement.

I would love skill trees, even just a couple for each class....but I can't think of a drawback off the top of my head to a scaled max level change to 8, for example.

Thoughts?