DPS vs Damage - a detailed comparison

[CosmoxKramer]

Sorry again for the errors. I deleted my old post. It seems i had made a little copy/paste error and forgot to fix some formulas on the cooldowns for spells. So every spell was running witha 3s cooldown (big error for Time Shift) etc. Now it is fixed. I also added in a 0.1-0.4s user error to the Auto Attack, so that it has a built in deduction (so that it is not a 'perfect world' calculator). I also had never added in the ability to calculate the 0-5% passive Damage %, but i did now.

Here are the #'s with the changes i made to the tool:
All based on 140% crit damage (unless LS 250%). Priority was (weapon, time shift, frost, lightning, fire)
Flamestrike, 204.1 Damage, 9.32% crit Clyde = 347
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 11.13 crit, Clyde = 361
Flamestrike, 204.1 Damage, 2.32% crit Colton = 378
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 4.13 crit, Colton = 392



Now let's play around with your numbers with 5% crit passive also added in. Also i adjusted the CritDam% to 200% on the last 2 lines for curiosity.
Flamestrike, 204.1 Damage, 14.32% crit Clyde, CritDam 140% = 353 (~2% dps increase for 5% crit)
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 16.13 crit, Clyde, CritDam 140% = 370 (~2% dps increase for 5% crit)
Flamestrike, 204.1 Damage, 14.32% crit Clyde, CritDam 200% = 355
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 16.13 crit, Clyde, CritDam 200% = 371

If we did Passive Damage % instead of Passive Crit we get
Flamestrike, 204.1 Damage, 9.32% crit, Clyde, CritDam 140%, 5% passive Damage = 365 (~5% increase)
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 11.13 crit, Clyde, CritDam 140%, 5% passive Damage = 380 (~5% increase)


I just don't think, with crit and crit damage being so low, that crit is a viable alternative to +damage items. (and boom go the item prices...oh wait probably only 2 people will read this long post)

My excel calculator has been updated and saved and is more automatic as well. I found that Mix/Max damage of Skills is based on 89%-111% of the Average damage. Average damage is calculated by a modifier * Damage
Fireball/Gale Force = 1.35 modifier
Lightning Bolt, Time Shift, Frost Bolt = 1.8
+15% Lightning Bolt = 2.07
Lifegiver = 3.6

[CosmoxKramer]

I also switched in Gale Force for Time Shift
Priority was (weapon, Gale Force, frost, lightning, fire)
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 11.13 crit, Clyde = 371 (10 more dps over TS)

Priority was (weapon, frost, lightning, fire, Gale Force)
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 11.13 crit, Clyde = 375 (14 more dps over TS)

Gale Force does the least net damage per spell cast (including upgrades), so it probably should be be last on priority, but because you can cast it almost 2x Timeshift, it does beat out TS on total DPS by a bit

[drgrimmy]

Hey Cosmo, since you seem to like crunching numbers... I think it would be usefull to compare overall dps to a mob of say 5 enemies assuming that the aoe based skills hit all 5 of the enemies and the weapon/non-aoe attacks hit only a single enemy. I think this would be a useful calculation for a tomb running or mob clearing build and would clearly show the superiority of the high damage builds with the rifle.

[CosmoxKramer]

Yep, sounds like fun. I think it would be a matter of multiplying each Skill line by *5. Would you want me to Charge all my skills? I generally charge my skills in W4 clears for the CC, DoTs, etc.

<edit> i guess the damage would be different per mob it hits, but in the long run of averages, i think it would be safe to *5. I may just update the calculator to allow you to select between 1-5 mobs and your Weapon only hits *mob count if you select Charge =yes.

[JaytB]

Sorry again for the errors. I deleted my old post. It seems i had made a little copy/paste error and forgot to fix some formulas on the cooldowns for spells. So every spell was running witha 3s cooldown (big error for Time Shift) etc. Now it is fixed. I also added in a 0.1-0.4s user error to the Auto Attack, so that it has a built in deduction (so that it is not a 'perfect world' calculator). I also had never added in the ability to calculate the 0-5% passive Damage %, but i did now.

Here are the #'s with the changes i made to the tool:
All based on 140% crit damage (unless LS 250%). Priority was (weapon, time shift, frost, lightning, fire)
Flamestrike, 204.1 Damage, 9.32% crit Clyde = 347
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 11.13 crit, Clyde = 361
Flamestrike, 204.1 Damage, 2.32% crit Colton = 378
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 4.13 crit, Colton = 392



Now let's play around with your numbers with 5% crit passive also added in. Also i adjusted the CritDam% to 200% on the last 2 lines for curiosity.
Flamestrike, 204.1 Damage, 14.32% crit Clyde, CritDam 140% = 353 (~2% dps increase for 5% crit)
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 16.13 crit, Clyde, CritDam 140% = 370 (~2% dps increase for 5% crit)
Flamestrike, 204.1 Damage, 14.32% crit Clyde, CritDam 200% = 355
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 16.13 crit, Clyde, CritDam 200% = 371

If we did Passive Damage % instead of Passive Crit we get
Flamestrike, 204.1 Damage, 9.32% crit, Clyde, CritDam 140%, 5% passive Damage = 365 (~5% increase)
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 11.13 crit, Clyde, CritDam 140%, 5% passive Damage = 380 (~5% increase)


I just don't think, with crit and crit damage being so low, that crit is a viable alternative to +damage items. (and boom go the item prices...oh wait probably only 2 people will read this long post)

My excel calculator has been updated and saved and is more automatic as well. I found that Mix/Max damage of Skills is based on 89%-111% of the Average damage. Average damage is calculated by a modifier * Damage
Fireball/Gale Force = 1.35 modifier
Lightning Bolt, Time Shift, Frost Bolt = 1.8
+15% Lightning Bolt = 2.07
Lifegiver = 3.6

Great job! Thanks for those numbers

It kind of was to be expected that 5% more Dmg > 5% more crit with current stats of endgame sorcerers.

Now the numbers of flamestrike rod vs crystal gun also match up with the timed runs I did. As said, they were slightly faster when using the gun, as is reflected in your Dmg output being a bit higher. I also tested Colton in timed runs, and again it matched the numbers (slightly faster runs). You were definitely right about missing out on Colton. The only thing I still use Clyde for is when I need the maximum amount of health I can get, without sacrificing too much Dmg. And then you didn't (as far as I understood) even took Colton's 15crit buff into account. So yeah, for Dmg pets Colton is most probably the way to go.

I think the user error of 0.1-0.4 also reflects a more realistic Dmg output number.

In any case, thanks for the number crunching, I can imagine it was a lot of work. I'm glad to see the numbers line up with my own tests. I'm definitely going to play around with your calculator soon

[drgrimmy]

Yep, sounds like fun. I think it would be a matter of multiplying each Skill line by *5. Would you want me to Charge all my skills? I generally charge my skills in W4 clears for the CC, DoTs, etc.

Yes assuming charging all skills, as I think most people tend to charge them for the addded effects/crowd control properties you gain from charging. I would also think no charging on weapon.

[JaytB]

I also switched in Gale Force for Time Shift
Priority was (weapon, Gale Force, frost, lightning, fire)
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 11.13 crit, Clyde = 371 (10 more dps over TS)

Priority was (weapon, frost, lightning, fire, Gale Force)
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 11.13 crit, Clyde = 375 (14 more dps over TS)

Gale Force does the least net damage per spell cast (including upgrades), so it probably should be be last on priority, but because you can cast it almost 2x Timeshift, it does beat out TS on total DPS by a bit

Cool, that was the first thing I wanted to test with your calculator LOL! Thanks for doing it for me.

I kind of like gale, it's an easy spell that also does AOE Dmg when charged and doesn't have such a horrible cooldown time as compared to time-shift. Time-shift definitely has some crowd control advantages, but I usually manage to push stray mobs back into position with gale. And of course, who doesn't like to run fast haha. I didn't expect it to actually deal more Dmg as compared to time-shift, makes me all the more happy I got rid of TS to make room for Gale

Looking forward to the results of what Grimm asked you about.

[CosmoxKramer]

yep, i don't generally charge the weapon, too slow for little impact (except added stun chance) but it still screws with the stun chance. Plus i Charged damage = to 1.5* normal damage. Hard to test because everything dies so fast. I'll try and test it again on the travelers outpost daily today a few times before making this change.

[CosmoxKramer]

Here is what i got, 5 mobs, 140% crit (except LS 250%)

Priority was (weapon, time shift, frost, fire, gale)
Flamestrike, 204.1 Damage, 9.32% crit, Clyde = 1,165
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 11.13 crit, Clyde = 1,297
Flamestrike, 204.1 Damage, 2.32% crit, Colton = 1,269
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 4.13 crit, Colton = 1,422
I tested these without anything being charged but Time Shift for Countdown of Pain and you only lose 80 dps for Oracle gun and Clyde combo


Priority was (weapon, frost, fire, gale, lightning). Funny thing is with this priority and Charging all skills, but not weapons, you never get to cast Lightning a single time. Obviously over the length of a run, when there is just a mob or 2 left and you don't need to charge you skill you can start popping off the spells.
Flamestrike, 204.1 Damage, 9.32% crit, Clyde = 1,081
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 11.13 crit, Clyde = 1,208
Flamestrike, 204.1 Damage, 2.32% crit, Colton = 1,172
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 4.13 crit, Colton = 1,316

[Erdnase]

Very nice guide man. But i hate you for making it! lol. Giving away all the good secrets. haha no its really good thx for making

[drgrimmy]

Here is what i got, 5 mobs, 140% crit (except LS 250%)

Priority was (weapon, time shift, frost, fire, gale)
Flamestrike, 204.1 Damage, 9.32% crit, Clyde = 1,165
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 11.13 crit, Clyde = 1,297
Flamestrike, 204.1 Damage, 2.32% crit, Colton = 1,269
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 4.13 crit, Colton = 1,422
I tested these without anything being charged but Time Shift for Countdown of Pain and you only lose 80 dps for Oracle gun and Clyde combo


Priority was (weapon, frost, fire, gale, lightning). Funny thing is with this priority and Charging all skills, but not weapons, you never get to cast Lightning a single time. Obviously over the length of a run, when there is just a mob or 2 left and you don't need to charge you skill you can start popping off the spells.
Flamestrike, 204.1 Damage, 9.32% crit, Clyde = 1,081
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 11.13 crit, Clyde = 1,208
Flamestrike, 204.1 Damage, 2.32% crit, Colton = 1,172
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 4.13 crit, Colton = 1,316

Thanks, great work! Actually I am suprised. I was expecting more than a little bit over a 10% advantage of the rifle over the rod.

Usually with a four offensive skill configuration I have time to charge all of my skills and don't really use the weapon. With the four offensive skill configuration it is probably better to use lightening than the weapon as I would think it would result in significantly better damage. I find that weapon "auto-attack" only really comes in to play when: 1) I am fighting a boss with a 4 offensive skill configuration and I am not charging all of my skills; or 2) I have a 3 offensive skill or less build.

Once again thanks for all the hard work calculating this out, although I have a feeling you enjoy it almost as much as playing the game itself

[CosmoxKramer]

I forgot to do "charge" testing before i ran the numbers. They are a bit high probably because i had 1.5*uncharged damage=charged, but it turns out that it is closer to 1.25*.

haha, yes, i do enjoy theorycrafting as much as playing....if i stopped doing this i may be lvl 26 already. But I screw around too much and i'm still 5k away.

What 4 skills do you use, if you don't mind me asking?

[drgrimmy]

I forgot to do "charge" testing before i ran the numbers. They are a bit high probably because i had 1.5*uncharged damage=charged, but it turns out that it is closer to 1.25*.

haha, yes, i do enjoy theorycrafting as much as playing....if i stopped doing this i may be lvl 26 already. But I screw around too much and i'm still 5k away.

What 4 skills do you use, if you don't mind me asking?

Hehe... I change up my build alot, but am currently running with fire, frost, time, life, 5/5 int, 5/5 str. The last time I consistently ran a 4 offensive skill build was before PvP came out with fire, frost, gale and time. Although most people don't like gale, I liked having a full aoe build for mob killing with the speed boost for fast runs (a nice leaderboard running build when mages could still compete). You just have to take care not to be a "scatter bear" (eg push mobs against walls and other objects instead of scattering them with gale - bears from pl know what I am talking about). Other builds I have used alot are: fire, frost, gale and life (seemed somewhat versatile for both PvE and PvP); fire, gale, time, and life (in my early al days); and fire, light, life and shield (although mostly for PvP, also worked suprisingly well for solo w4 runs saving me alot in pots). Many more builds have been tried and discarded

[CosmoxKramer]

i hear ya, i've tried a ton.
I also understood scatter bear. I enjoying playing my bear in PL and knew how to yack towards a wall/corner then take a step and stop them up against that same wall/corner

[Pfurz]

Thank you for this...i made it PDF

[CosmoxKramer]

Hey guys. I after getting a question from Wolfkult (user) on a Warrior forum topic. I went back and was doing some calculations of what your real DPS stat on the avatar page should be when including Crit.

For Example, now my mage is 26 and in my damage/armor type gear i have 216.8 Damage and 3.33% Crit and DPS shows 243.9 with oracle crystal
so my real DPS = Damage * (1+(crit%*critdam%)) * other Dam% * aps (attacks per second). and CritDam from weapons is 130%
216.8*(1+(.0333*1.3))*1*1.125 = 254.45
If i had 5 extra Skill points, should i put them in Crit or Dam%
216.8*(1+(.0833*1.3))*1*1.125 = 270.3
216.8*(1+(.0333*1.3))*1.05*1.125 = 267.2

Woh! so Crit is better than Damage! Not quite, but now why was my calculator showing the opposite. Well 2 things to note:

1. yes, i found an error where i was calculating what the damage of an individual crit was. I accidentally still had the "(1+(crit%" in the formula. Where in turn, i'm not trying to calculate average damage of 1 crit, but needed to just do Damage roll * 130% for weapons or 140% for skills. I'll man up and say sorry!!! SORRY
2. the above averages may be a bit Skewed, because of misses, dodges, and Pure randomness involved in the game. Crits may be higher in some cases, but over the long run, Dam% probably provides a more steady DPS. Makes sense... Plus on an individual weapon/skill calculation of average damage crit may be better, but with varying Critdam% as well, crit doesn't have the same effect overall as straight Dam%. if critdam was indeed 200% damage as the base, then crit would always be > dam%

So i fixed the damage calculation and reran some numbers. This time i'll add i'll show the min-max of the hundred test scenarios for each. 0% passive damage in all of the below. Also, i threw out Flamestrike weapon, because they were still quite a bit lower than the Oracle gun.
Priority was (weapon, time shift, frost, fire, lightning)
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 11.13 crit, Clyde = 376 (363-393)
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 4.13 crit, Colton = 401 (387-415)

Priority was (weapon, frost, lightning, fire, gale).
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 11.13 crit, Clyde = 373 (360-394)
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 4.13 crit, Colton = 396 (381-407)

So, both build are almost equal now, where GF was slightly beter than TS. using your Build, Jaytb, what is better, 5% crit or 5% damage passives.
Priority was (weapon, frost, lightning, fire, gale).
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 16.13 crit, Clyde = 383 (369-401)
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 9.13 crit, Colton = 406 (390-423)
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 11.13 crit, Clyde, 5% dam = 392 (374-409)
Oracle gun, 227.8 Damage, 4.13 crit, Colton, 5% dam = 415 (402-426)

in each case of the =5% passive, your dps goes up 5%. In each case of the +5% crit, your dps goes up just over 2.5%. Lightning was cast 17.5% of total casts at 250% critdam, other skills were 39.8% of the time at 140% critdam, and weapon was the remaining 42.7% at 130%. So add that up (17.5%*250%)+(39.8%*140%)+(42.7*130%) = 155% crit dam weighted average or +55% damage over normal attack. .05 *.55=2.75% which is pretty close to the 2.5% increase. if i had the decimals in the DPS above, that may account for the .25% difference.

So, in the end, crit seems to give about 0.5% dps increase per 1% crit (assuming you have Lightning 250% in your build). Without Lightning it is close to 0.35% dps boost to 1% crit. While Dam% gives you about 1:1 ratio.

[JaytB]

@Cosmo

You remind me of Physiologic. That's a good thing btw

I ran out of thanks again, so I'll give you a virtual thanks here... *thanks*

That dmg calculator gets better every day

[CosmoxKramer]

Thank you!

I think will will make a 2nd version that is only 100s long instead of 300s, and then you can really see the spikes from crits/misses etc. and whenever I say I updated something in the calculator, then I mean there is a new version in my google docs.

[Szangheili]

As a warrior, I like keeping both above the 100 mark, because when tanking, you will be using both lots of the time. Just my two cents to all the tanks out there.

[JaytB]

As a warrior, I like keeping both above the 100 mark, because when tanking, you will be using both lots of the time. Just my two cents to all the tanks out there.

Generally, warrior weapons are quite slow. I haven't done a detailed analysis yet, but basically if you attack more with your skills as compared to using the attack button, Dmg>DPS.

But, as said, I'd have to do some more testing on warriors before coming to any conclusions. I do have a lv25 warrior, but I don't enjoy playing it too much. I like a challenge and warriors, to me, are just running in and spamming skills and some health pots.