Tindirin Wilds Changes

[ueveotadeo]

Hi all, Id like to express my thoughts on this new Mob size/placement on Wilds.

First of all, it's nice to see that u guys are working hard on improving all lag issues on game. Nonetheless I have a concern on how those mobs are scatered through map. As we all might know, Warriors and Mages are quite neglected on good end game pts. Good rogues usualy run onl on rogue pts, no real need for warrs and mages on elite maps nowadays (dunno if it has been always like this or if its just my bad luck on not geting pts). With reduced mobs u basicaly killed the need to have a warr holding aggro and with them being so scatered around there is realy no need for a mage to spread damage around.

I might be very wrong here, and I realy hope I am, but looks to me that if this new arrangement is the way to go with the game you are just killing the need of warrs and mages. If this is the way to go at least make the mobs attack faster and harder so you make the need of have someone constantly stunning them and holding aggro.

Have any more experienced player tried this map?
What you guys think about this new mob placement?

[Remiem]

Interesting analysis. I would also be interested to hear what other warriors and mages think.

[Zylx]

I had the same concern on the original thread by Carapace. Mages are good for crowd control, and warriors are the damage-absorbing tanks. With all these changes going into effect (mob size, leash, etc), the purposes of those two classes would be diminished and it will be even harder for those players to find parties.

Rogues are ideal for dealing large damage to small groups of mobs/bosses. My concern, is that everyone is going to want to go with a full party of rogues (as it would be more efficient), rather than the usual 1warr + 2rogues + 1mage.

[Carapace]

Thanks for the feedback on this, I will talk it over with Null_Void and see if we can devise a middle ground moving forward into other levels of relevance in the future. We do want to preserve as much of the original feel as we can, and we felt that The Wilds was a good middle ground map to begin the process and get player feedback on on top of our potential maximum bandwidth gains.

There is no doubt a middle ground somewhere, but network performance moving forward is very important as well.

[Cray]

I'm not very experienced but ill share my view lol
I play as rogue, and ran this map with 2 other rogues today (2 mythic weaps and one legendary)
We cud just ran to boss spamming arrows and the boss wud appear, runs were rly fast and we only need to stop to kill a group of mobs one time in the map now.
I don't mind the changes(cuz I'm rogue prolly lol) but I see ur point in it making wars and mages more unwanted for runs

[ueveotadeo]

Yes, for normal maps you dont need warrs and mages, I was refering to Elite runs...

And I agree network improvements should be a concern since the game population is growing. But if we are making mobs small and more spreaded, make then hit stronger and faster, that way we could bring some use for warrs and mages (i think)

[GoodSyntax]

I think it is time for Warriors to evolve a bit. Sure, there is always a need for a good tank, but there should also be an alternative build where they can be more of an offensive threat. Yeah, I know, you can use a Maul and Assault (or Potency) set, but even still, the damage output is low, and I don't care what STS says, having tanks in your party DOES make runs more difficult in that bosses hit harder.

If Warrior's in party were massively debuffing mobs while dealing fair damage, then I think people would be more willing to run with them. Unfortunately, for the high-end parties, the age of the pure tank is over - especially with Ankh around.

Suppose there were an upgrade to Windmill that debuffed mobs (and bosses) armor by 50%. Also, like Enfeebling, there could an upgrade to Skyward Smash that reduced mob (and boss) hit chance by 100% for 2 seconds.

This would then create a new dynamic in game, where Tanks primary role is aggro management and debuffing, Sorcs primary role is crowd control and DoT, and Rogues primary role would be single target damage.

As long as tanks continue to bring little to the party other than serving as a punching bag, tanks will continue to suffer. STS, please consider adding massive debuff capabilities to the tank class, it would make their role in party a critical one for fast runs and survival against the one-hit bosses!

[ueveotadeo]

I think it is time for Warriors to evolve a bit. Sure, there is always a need for a good tank, but there should also be an alternative build where they can be more of an offensive threat. Yeah, I know, you can use a Maul and Assault (or Potency) set, but even still, the damage output is low, and I don't care what STS says, having tanks in your party DOES make runs more difficult in that bosses hit harder.

If Warrior's in party were massively debuffing mobs while dealing fair damage, then I think people would be more willing to run with them. Unfortunately, for the high-end parties, the age of the pure tank is over - especially with Ankh around.

Suppose there were an upgrade to Windmill that debuffed mobs (and bosses) armor by 50%. Also, like Enfeebling, there could an upgrade to Skyward Smash that reduced mob (and boss) hit chance by 100% for 2 seconds.

This would then create a new dynamic in game, where Tanks primary role is aggro management and debuffing, Sorcs primary role is crowd control and DoT, and Rogues primary role would be single target damage.

As long as tanks continue to bring little to the party other than serving as a punching bag, tanks will continue to suffer. STS, please consider adding massive debuff capabilities to the tank class, it would make their role in party a critical one for fast runs and survival against the one-hit bosses!

As always great post!

Giving warriors some debuffs would be great! But then again coming the fact that mobs are so scatered around and so small in size would mean that rogues debuff capabilities with aimed shot could be enough.

What about making mobs faster? Moving faster, attacking faster, it should bring back some need for tank and mages in a short term. Changes in skills might be more tricky, but I agree with you that they are needed.

[Xorrior]

I am an end-game tank, and this layout will make me totally redundant. I agree with the original post and Kalizzaa's first post. Please take a good luck at this, I feel that if maps are to be scattered around like this. You will kill off the tanks for good! Give the tank the ability to heavily debuff mobs and bosses and stop one hit boss kills, with some sort of charge skill.

In the next expansion to make sure rogues don't run riot, you can have a mob mage/genie that negates rogues attacks should there be a party of 3 or more.

[GoodSyntax]

As always great post!

Giving warriors some debuffs would be great! But then again coming the fact that mobs are so scatered around and so small in size would mean that rogues debuff capabilities with aimed shot could be enough.

What about making mobs faster? Moving faster, attacking faster, it should bring back some need for tank and mages in a short term. Changes in skills might be more tricky, but I agree with you that they are needed.

This is true, but the real value of a debuff tank would be at the boss. Imagine being able to kill a boss in half the time because the tank is constantly applying a 50% armor debuff. Also, a great tank would mean that you rarely, if ever get hit by a windup because when the tank sees the red zone, he applies the 100% hit debuff, effectively allowing everyone in the zone to dodge the attack. Either that, or shield you with HoR when the hit debuff is on cool down.

Tanks need to become a strategic class. And, I think crushing debuffs would be the best way to make pro parties WANT to run with tanks again!

[Xorrior]

Yes, make the tank a strategy class, for example... In tomb 3 when Taurus gets ready to do his red dash attack. I run and block him! He bounces off me and I get dazed, better than a rogue or mage dying!

[Zeus]

In PL, tanks had some pretty epic debuffs which made it not as much of a hassle to run with the good ones. On top of that, they had some crowd control skills to help group mobs. AL has none of that and gave that role to sorcerers which, IMO, is why tanks are almost always left out these days.

The real reason people used tanks was not for their ability to take damage/absorb it...but because they were able to herd mobs and apply fantastic debuffs.

[Enterradora]

In the wilds normal map i run solo easy whitt warr, mage or rogue, anyway u can go random and always someone is there.

If u are talking about elite, warr and mage still need to be there, warr to get dmg and heal properly, and mage to crontrol de mobs.

If u do a party whit 4 rogues u cant do a big pull whit an insurance to survive.

just my opinion

[ueveotadeo]

If u are talking about elite, warr and mage still need to be there, warr to get dmg and heal properly, and mage to crontrol de mobs.

If u do a party whit 4 rogues u cant do a big pull whit an insurance to survive.

just my opinion

I understand what you say, on a not so good geared PT it can be helpfull to still have them on PT, which might be most of the cases tbh now that I think on that....

But in a more hardcorea and geared PT there is realy no need for warrs....

[Enterradora]

I understand what you say, on a not so good geared PT it can be helpfull to still have them on PT, which might be most of the cases tbh now that I think on that....

But in a more hardcorea and geared PT there is realy no need for warrs....

rogues whit 5k hp / 700 dmg and 1700 armor no need warrs or mages in any map but they are the 1%

[ueveotadeo]

rogues whit 5k hp / 700 dmg and 1700 armor no need warrs or mages in any map but they are the 1%

Agree, but bear with me on this one, even not so fully geared rogues, with the right skills and tactics, rly dont need warrs...

And as you said, there is a 1% of rogues with that stats, but there also is a 1% of tanks with pretty awesome stats with arc ring, mythic amulet and weapon (which is my case, and I realy hope I dont sound too arrogant by saying this) and I bet those guys would like to see more use for them on PVE elite PTs.

There should be a need, despite of the gear you have, to have all classes on PT. Making each one have a strategic role making runs going faster and smoother, gears would just increase the speed, but tactics should always play a major role!

I dont know if Im right on what Im saying or not, Im just expressing my concerns about the need of warriors and mages on endgame Elite PTs.


All classes should have an equal importance and need on a PT, even though their strategic roles are diferent

[Maarkus]

Interesting analysis. I would also be interested to hear what other warriors and mages think.

Good evening,
I havent ran the new tindrin map but even without running it the recent scenario is that tanks are generally unwanted as we slow down parties, as pointed out, a tank's purpose in elite runs is almost obsolete, it would be great if STS can evaluate the warrior skills and from my experience.
Modesty aside i believe that my gear is rather maxed and i have one of the rare crit build warrior set ups which can reach 50crit at 700dmg with 800dps and thats with elix but in no way am i as efficient as a medium geared rogue.
Though i understand giving warriors more crit and dmg wont solve the problem the points mentioned on allowing wars to debuff mons and bosses can be the next way to evolve out class. I may be mistaken but if i remember correctly there was a time when chestsplitter was able to cancell boss special attacks either that or the feeble upgrade was just that effective this is like an option for pve runs.
I sincerely hope that sts looks into this.
Thanks for reading
Maarkus

[Xorrior]

We struggle to be involved in end-game party runs these days. If the current Elite Tindirin Wilds will be the way maps and future expansions are to be layed out then my existence as a tank will be null and void.

If I don't get the party invites or my class becomes totally redundant then tell me DEVs why would I continue to invest and play this game ? I am not here to chat in guild halls or stand around in any outposts/camps or piers for hours on end hoping and wishing for someone to take pity on me and party with this old tank.

I want to play as a tank and would like to be involved in all aspects of capped gameplay.

As I have said make a mob protagonist that would nullify a gang of rogues and as we have said in this post allow our class to debuff heavily mobs and bosses and give us a chance of 100% to stop the boss death blow.

P.S I am constantly called for tomb 3 runs because I stun the boss and also block him from insta-killing a rogue or mage with his dash. Those two feats are my saving grace in the game!

[Veluthe]

I too think wild improvements are awkward. Mobs are too scattered and few now. This issue lies where you take first turn right after first group of mobs and before boss. After first right turn there is a lone mob and before boss the mob group is too near to boss area I think. Its also noticeable mobs have been scaled down and boss buffed which is fine but with new mob placement wilds is super easy now. Before this change wilds could easily be done with all dps now its even easier. And yes this makes tanks obsolete so the debuffing for them would be great. Even in tombs and other elites you dont need tank if good dps especially mage which can control mobs well. Clock+ ethyl ftw!

[Tankbozz]

I'm a tank for pve and my vorm is easy.
When you have entered friends who run with a warrior you haven't luck. All run with rouge many guys quit warrior and do rouge because of it. Rouges are the new tanks that's bad! The worth of mage and warrior get down because it gone useless. rouge with samael or singe don't need a tank who hold aggro anymore. Frost bow make the clock skill from mage useless! I hope you fix that, when not mage and warrior are useless in end game and only rouges go for end game and I think sts don't like it!

best wishes Tankbozz