New GCD 0.25 sec - Does skill combo rotation mean a big deal?

[Cloudiz]

***This discussion is for players, who want to maximise every ounce of damage they can dish out in the most efficient way possible. Casual players can take comfort in knowing the new GCD of 0.25 would mean the rotation hardly matters to the casual***

Skill combos for birds.
If you do it the Physiologic way, his debuff string is as follows:

Break Armor -> Root - > Blinding Shot

I used to do Root - > Break - > Blind

I recently changed it to match Physiologic's method after reading his post on how there is a hit cap, but not necessarily a crit cap(unconfirmed).

Root causes a 30% dodge debuff. When the fight starts, people are firing away. Presuming, for players at AO2 and above level, you guys are all hit capped (i.e. at least 100 hit %)
Players have an unalterable 15% miss chance regardless of whether your hit is 160 or 135(again read Physiologic tables http://www.spacetimestudios.com/show...-DPS-Crits-etc. for the breakdown)

**
XI. Algorithm for a Successful or Failed Attack

When you attack an enemy, the game follows a specific algorithm that determines the outcome of the attack:
STAGES (if you pass stage 1 then you get to stage 2 and so forth)
1. You will MISS the attack
2. The enemy will DODGE the attack
3. You will damage the enemy
4. You will critically damage the enemy
**(Credits to Physiologic for this)**

Presuming you don't miss and fall within the unlucky 15% miss proc(Stage 1), you will still have to face the mob or boss's dodge factor(Stage 2). You might, at this point, not land your shot at all if the mob dodges.
Your shot will therefore not even reach stage 3 or 4 - chance to crit or not.

I have thought about the benefits of an early break armor. Instead of hoping the mob does not dodge, the advantage of an early Break Armor, I think, is to quickly down bosses such OverLord, who can give a whopping the longer the fights drag.
Instead of talking boss specific setups, let us examine the debuff theory in general, of Mob Dodge vs Burst Damage.

My method encourages the player attacks to reach stages 3 or even hopefully 4(the crit proc). Also at the beginning of the fight, the tank is meant to be wailing on the boss, and building aggro. At this stage most debuffs are applied. A reduced boss dodge might help some teammates land their debuffs.
I would presume though, that right at the outset everyone will be spamming their debuffs -- so you, the Bird player, if you play in any similar fashion to Physiologic or myself, will be moving with the tank, and sometimes ahead of the tank to cast early Thorn walls/roots, thus setting up reduced dodge stage 2.

Physiologic's method is also plausible. If the boss, like some threads have observed, have a weird aggro table which refuses to be quenched until someone hits a higher number, or if the tank resets it with Taunt, then one might as well burst away?
If that were so, then setting up an early increased damage will potentially wield a strong burst damage scale on the boss until the next cooldown. This is presuming no one misses, and the boss does not dodge. (stage 1 and 2)

Yet something seems amiss. If the start of the boss fight has most people applying debuffs, those debuffs are usually not damaging to warrant a 5 second armor-reducing Break Armor.
By the time the real damage comes in, such as Lightning, or Cruel Blast, or Nature Strike etc, the debuff would have been in its final 3 seconds(out of total of 5sec). The first 2 seconds of the debuff will be in effect, only serving to *increase any damaging debuff* the team members would apply onto the boss, which is to say, isn't a lot

To put the whole issue in perspective, now that the GCD is 0.25 sec, these two skills could come one right after the other. I am still undecided which should come first.
Thorn Root lasts only 3 seconds. Break Armor has a 5 second duration. The key point in my conclusion would be for someone to confirm whether Break Armor stacks onto itself, from the player bird, so that it stacks much like how Taunt would stack, giving 26x2 (52 armor debuff).

If this is true, then applying Break Armor first is a good alternative.
If not, then I do not see a huge benefit to applying it before Thorn Root.

In summary: Thorn Root, sets up lowered boss dodge with a 3 second window so that all your party debuffs will not be dodged.
Following that, in a short GCD, the Break Armor would arrive in tandem with the BIG outgoing damage the whole team will unleash onto the boss. This sets up a good even damage distribution for the Archer. Most of the time the boss will come onto you. If you do not ensure your mates do not miss, then the only person hitting the boss for FAT DAMAGE will be YOU in the initial burst(Focus adds high hit. Keep in mind the developer's changing patches and balance means your FOCUS has a reason for its hit %).
Which means AGGRO MAMA!

*Good news 08/05/11: Credits to Eversor for confirming that an archer can stack his own Break Armor. That means with another bird you guys can do for brief moments, -104 armor on the boss, which is lean mean cutting machine. I have not yet tested it with Mooger, but once we do I will post final confirmation. This looks promising... Archers can now be really helpful in reducing time on boss runs. Think Sand Storm, Plasma Pyramid and Victory Lap!*

[Moogerfooger]

Break Armor stacks. 'Nuff said. That's why multi-archer parties almost always start combos (especially against bosses) with Break Armor.

When Phys and I would roll, he and I would Break > Root > Blind at all times (when possible/charged, and sometimes would not worry about Blind if it wasn't charged) and would especially roll in on bosses/minibosses. The Root sets up Nature Strike for the mages, and the mages we ran with knew our patterns and as soon as they saw the Break Armor go out, launch Lightning (which has a slight cast delay) and would hit right after our Root. Works like a champ! Followed up with Cruel Blast, of course

Excellent post, too....nice to see a well-thought out post other than "GCD sux"

[Cloudiz]

Thanks for the quick reply. I was wondering if the Break Armor stacks on your own character, meaning 26 pts x 2 for just your own part? The 5 second cooldown would mean your previous Break armor was still in effect is what I mean.

And if it does stack, does the previous 26 points get refreshed? The obvious assumption is that 52 pts will be the max -- but the question is whether it stays at 52 upon concurrent applications of it? (tank taunt suggests this is so)

So both birds would have a theoretical 52 x 2 which is 104 armor debuff.

Still the self stacking question remains unsolved. A confirmation would help thanks.

[Moogerfooger]

No, it doesn't stack on your character, it stacks on the target. It is a target debuff, not a character buff (I think that is what you meant). If I hit a target, and then you hit it 3 secs later, that hit-ee is now down individual break armor x 2, one for each hit-ter...further guesstimate later...

TBH, I know for a fact it stacks, as we tested it out with friends in a private PvP game....I don't recall the exact numbers because it was quite a while ago, but I remember that our fearless volunteer let both Phys and I hit him with Break Armor and he said his armor score (and we verified by inspecting his page quickly) dropped from 150 (exact number, can't recall) to 98...26x2, as Phys and I each had lvl 6 Break Armor.

Now, do the individual hits from hitter #1 and followed by #2 reset the 5 sec clock for #1? Dunno< I don't think so but I won't say for sure. It was hard to tell looking at inspect screens quickly.

This is what I assume happens, and if it is not exactly like this, it has to be something close, when talking about multi-archer attacks. When we were testing, we could see our target volunteers armor flickering from -52 to -26, so it suggests this is somewhat accurate.

Hitter 1 hits Tgt with BArmor...Tgt is -26 armor debuffed, for 5 secs.

Hitter 2 hits Tgt with BArmor 2 seconds later....Tgt is now debuffed -52 armor.

3 seconds later, Hitter 1's debuff wears off....Tgt is back to -26 armor for 2 more seconds from Hitter 2's BArmor.

2 seconds later, Hitter 2's debuff wears off...Tgt back to normal armor....however, since BArmor has 5 sec cooldown, Hitter #1 pops TGT again, and the cycle begins anew.

[Cloudiz]

No, it doesn't stack on your character, it stacks on the target. It is a target debuff, not a character buff (I think that is what you meant).

Thanks for the reply again, but you misunderstand.
Let us ignore any other archer teammate, and let's just say I'm the only archer in the team.
I actually meant that Break Armor is on a 5 sec cooldown timer, but it LASTS for 10 seconds. So what I meant above is me casting Breakarmor 5 seconds into the #1 debuff. So if #2 it stacks like you have mentioned, then from second 6 - second 10, it will be -52 right?
That is just for me.

Moogerfooger my teammate joins the equation. If both of us do it exactly at the same time, then from 6th to 10th second will it be -104?
It will be. Presuming I can stack my own debuff to make it -52 without any other archer in my team.

Hope this clarifies the question.

[Moogerfooger]

Hypothetically speaking, that is entirely possible we were just testing to see if it stacked in the first place between player 1 and 2, or at all. We did not (at that time) try to see if the individual could pull off a double debuff between seconds 5.1-10.

I have a 180ish armor setup on my bear Paleriderz, add me up (what is your in game name, so I can look for it?) and we can test it out. Phys and Royce may (and probably) know the answer, but Phys is forum/game AFK for a while with a new job and Royce is on break....maybe you (with my pewpewpew target dummy) can figure it out, unless someone else chimes in with the answer. I will be on very sporadically over the weekend, but if on can try.

[Cloudiz]

hi Mooger my archer is cloudiz. I have sent your warrior a friend request

[Moogerfooger]

KK I will look for it. I may be on tonight (I am in US Central time), but if not, will try and catch up over the weekend sometime

Regardless, rereading your OP...I think in reality, that either thorn root (or wall) and break armor (at least in PvE) should be the first two items in a combo...tbh, I think that with GCD being pretty small now that the order of the two is really up to personal preference and if you have mages ready to cast lightning as soon as they see/predict you are throwing the thorns (both set up Nature Strike).

"Yet something seems amiss. If the start of the boss fight has most people applying debuffs, those debuffs are usually not damaging to warrant a 5 second armor-reducing Break Armor.
By the time the real damage comes in, such as Lightning, or Cruel Blast, or Nature Strike etc, the debuff would have been in its final 2 seconds(out of total of 5sec). The first 3 seconds of the debuff will be in effect, only serving to *increase any damaging debuff* the team members would apply onto the boss, which is to say, isn't a lot"

If I Break Armor > Thorn Root/Wall and a good mage casts Lightning as soon as they see/hear Break Armor, the Lightning hitting a armor debuffed boss would be less than 3 seconds into the initial BArmor. But on paper this all sounds superspecific, but is difficult to recreate unless running with a group of mages and archers (and bears, as well) that know each toher's patterns pretty well and at the end of the day, it is six of one, half dozen of the other.

I am curious to see if you can double BArmor stack individually, back to that...see ya in game at some point

[Cloudiz]

yes thank you. I am in UK GMT 0 so I guess that sets us apart 8 hours?
thanks for the fruitful analysis so far. I am also curious to check if it stacks upon itself solo

[rocket]

Yet something seems amiss. If the start of the boss fight has most people applying debuffs, those debuffs are usually not damaging to warrant a 5 second armor-reducing Break Armor.
By the time the real damage comes in, such as Lightning, or Cruel Blast, or Nature Strike etc, the debuff would have been in its final 2 seconds(out of total of 5sec). The first 3 seconds of the debuff will be in effect, only serving to *increase any damaging debuff* the team members would apply onto the boss, which is to say, isn't a lot

I am not sure where you are getting that it break armor will only be in effective use for only the final two seconds. As a mage I can cast my two debuffs within a 0.5 sec so the Break Armor debuff could be fully used for the remaining 4.5 seconds.

Also, since thorn root only lasts 3 seconds total, it makes more sense to cast it later.
For example:

Time = 0.0 seconds
Bird= Break armor
Mage= Nightmare

Time = 0.25 seconds
Bird = Thorn root
Mage= Weakness

Time = 0.5 seconds
Bird = Blinding Shot
Mage= Lightning Storm

If you cast thorn root first, it only last for 2.5 seconds before players start casting major damage skills. If you cast it second, players will have an extra 0.25 seconds to maximize damage.

By the way, this is really a boss strategy. For regular mob killing it makes most sense to use thorn root right away so mages can use lightning strike.

[Cloudiz]

@rocket
what you are saying happens in a controlled environment where not only the bird has to play forerunner, he or she knows exactly when the mage will do his rotation is which specific order, and vice versa the mage has to not spam his lightning first, etc. The mage however in all fair manner, will hit his lightning within the 3 second debuff of Thorn Root(most mages do use lightning early on, especially so since it has a slight delay)

lightning is on a 3 sec cd whereas root is on a 6.25 second cd. casting root first allows the mage to do 2 times the lightning by the second root. it also debuffs dodge, which improves the party's chance to hit(or boss to not dodge, if you will) with debuffs, and lightning, and other stuff, and more stuff.
as i mentioned above, in the first instance break armor does not increase your nightmare and weakness damage. in fact all it does is increase the outgoing white or skill damage of your team........ that is......
IF they do not MISS(15% chance as stressed), and then IF the boss does not dodge, you get the possibility of crit. (big smiles)

but... IF they hit, but then it goes on stage 2 to receive an enemy Dodge, it all goes to naught. no crit

Dodge = no damage, no crit, no party debuffs, no platinums.
(passing the 15% cutoff mark, surrending to a 50% or more dodge rate is quite sad, which thorn root removes by a whopping 30%)

the loss in damage... from not utilising the first 2 seconds of white dps on the boss(when under an early Break Armor), may not justify the extra 0.25 extra seconds(to quote you) to maximize damage, IF any of the party members miss entirely and not get to stage 3 of the process.
Net loss of missed/dodged attack > gross average damage gained within 0.25 second ~ further affected by GCD, spell CD, within 0.25 frame of tolerance.

if you analyse it again, you will realise the purpose of thorn root is not just to allow a Nature Strike combo to take place.
that was my conclusion at first stance, which is currently under consideration following Mooger's input and yours.

Thank you for the thoughts still.

PS: I have made a typo correction to "the final 3 seconds instead of final 2". You are right in saying it doesn't take 3 seconds to cast debuffs. I actually meant 2 seconds were lost. And you can't accurately say you don't require 2 seconds to cast your debuff. You have to be friends with Sizoo, with excellent Mind Powers, to know exactly when my bird will cast the BArmor and time all your debuffs within the 1st second of my Break Armor
I believe in *Mind Powers*

[Eversor]

I went into an arena with my buddy kiitz to see if I could stack break armor by myself. He confirmed that the two break armors I casted him did indeed stack.

[Moogerfooger]

I went into an arena with my buddy kiitz to see if I could stack break armor by myself. He confirmed that the two break armors I casted him did indeed stack.

Coolio, thanks Eversor!

Cloudiz, I can log in right now if you want to verify this as well for your own research.

[Cloudiz]

I went into an arena with my buddy kiitz to see if I could stack break armor by myself. He confirmed that the two break armors I casted him did indeed stack.

cool eversor! we would be able to contribute to the community with this helpful info. Thanks for the testing!