Lootboxes

**Ghoul** · 04-30-2018, 09:36 AM

Hello,

As some of you may be aware, recently Apple made it mandatory for all apps on the app store to display the odds for getting various loot from lootboxes. Of course our version of those is locked crates, the odds of which haven't been published. I'm actually rather surprised apple hasn't noticed yet - I attribute this to the fact that our lootboxes are not in a particular store section like other games, but drop in the world.

Also, I'm certain that the rules require the app to list odds even if the lootboxes open with in-game currency purchasable with actual money (platinum). I found this thread which may be worth a read: https://forums.developer.apple.com/thread/94213

Thank you!

**badgirlchlo** · 04-30-2018, 10:26 AM

justg recently responded to a thread like this, if locks were in store for say 5 dollars they would have to release droprates but there are multiple ways of acquiring platinum such as plat eggs crate keys and more so they do not need to release

**Slowking** · 04-30-2018, 10:50 AM

You make an interesting argument about them dropping in the game's world as opposed to being available for direct purchase. But while it could be used as a potential loophole, I doubt its the kind of trickery a player base would want its developers to be pulling off. Now, I must reiterate, I am not trying to imply anything here, just stating some opinions. It may have been overlooked on STS's part, but its best to look at it from both sides.

First off, the numbers not being published is a great way for more and more crates to be opened. If some people get lucky and they spread the word, it causes a reaction of sorts which starts from more people opening crates (unaware of their actual chances, but believing it to be higher than what is, simply because out of 30 people they asked 8 got real lucky and 13 got a bit lucky) making them try their luck, causing the price to shoot up, causing more people to farm for it as it becomes a solid way of definite in-game income. Its a bit like the lottery. When you keep your eyes on jackpot, you'd go "Hey, I'm spending a 30 bucks and with some luck I'm gonna make 10x the dough". But when your friend shows you one day using Permutations the actual chances of you getting that jackpot, you start realizing the truth of how big the risk is. I realise I just described the concept of Gambling but this could be seen as manipulation by some. It works for STS as they make money and keep their players immersed in their game.

Now for the other side. As I mentioned, its a solid path for some small in-game income. That is a very good thing from an FTP POV. And STS making money off this can't be truly condemned for they are a business and they do need the money to hold the game up. Also, this is just conjecture at this point, until STS clarifies and until then, there is a chance STS could've overlooked it or deemed it not really necessary.

I would most definitely love for some clarity on this subject. The rates being published may cause a dip in the income the game gets but its better than being shut down by Apple. Unless of course, I'm missing some point about it. The player-base, I'm sure (well, almost sure), would love for the devs to interact with the players on this issue.

**Slowking** · 04-30-2018, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by badgirlchlo

justg recently responded to a thread like this, if locks were in store for say 5 dollars they would have to release droprates but there are multiple ways of acquiring platinum such as plat eggs crate keys and more so they do not need to release

I would quote one of the comments on the link Ghoul gave, "There must be an intent behind this guideline and the most obvious one is the actual thing, getting apps to display probabilities for loot boxes. If Apple were to allow this "loop-hole" where boxes purchased with virtual currency were not subject to this guideline, everyone in the community would naturally migrate to this method, as it would be easier. But then the guideline would have no meaning, it would just flip everyone from one side of the fence to the other while being in the same yard somehow sort of speak." The guidelines have been put there for a reason. So that the people can know how random the RNG of the game is. And the crate is an RNG system bought using in-game currency.

**Slowking** · 04-30-2018, 10:59 AM

You make an interesting argument about them dropping in the game's world as opposed to being available for direct purchase. But while it could be used as a potential loophole, I doubt its the kind of trickery a player base would want its developers to be pulling off. Now, I must reiterate, I am not trying to imply anything here, just stating some opinions. It may have been overlooked on STS's part, but its best to look at it from both sides.

First off, the numbers not being published is a great way for more and more crates to be opened. If some people get lucky and they spread the word, it causes a reaction of sorts which starts from more people opening crates (unaware of their actual chances, but believing it to be higher than what is, simply because out of 30 people they asked 8 got real lucky and 13 got a bit lucky) making them try their luck, causing the price to shoot up, causing more people to farm for it as it becomes a solid way of definite in-game income. Its a bit like the lottery. When you keep your eyes on jackpot, you'd go "Hey, I'm spending a 30 bucks and with some luck I'm gonna make 10x the dough". But when your friend shows you one day using Permutations the actual chances of you getting that jackpot, you start realizing the truth of how big the risk is. I realise I just described the concept of Gambling but this could be seen as manipulation by some. It works for STS as they make money and keep their players immersed in their game.

Now for the other side. As I mentioned, its a solid path for some small in-game income. That is a very good thing from an FTP POV. And STS making money off this can't be truly condemned for they are a business and they do need the money to hold the game up. Also, this is just conjecture at this point, until STS clarifies and until then, there is a chance STS could've overlooked it or deemed it not really necessary.

I would most definitely love for some clarity on this subject. The rates being published may cause a dip in the income the game gets but its better than being shut down by Apple. Unless of course, I'm missing some point about it. The player-base, I'm sure (well, almost sure), would love for the devs to interact with the players on this issue.

Thank you

**Java** · 04-30-2018, 11:34 AM

Justg has responded to this before. He said "...it refers to Loot Crates purchased directly from the Store via In App Purchases. Our crates are purchased for Platinum, a virtual currency that is available via a variety of means."

((Couldn't figure out how to quote him from a closed thread))

**wowdah** · 04-30-2018, 12:42 PM

See here - I thought this as well. https://www.spacetimestudios.com/sho...ght=apple+odds

**Spell** · 04-30-2018, 01:54 PM

imma be honest here ,the last couple of crates hug/tavern crawl/bun bun/marvelous crates have had the absolute worst drop rates ever.idk if its just my luck but id rather open mas glinter/nightmare/black ice crates any day as apose to any of the recent event crates.id love like to see the drop chances at this point.

**Ghoul** · 04-30-2018, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by Java

Justg has responded to this before. He said "...it refers to Loot Crates purchased directly from the Store via In App Purchases. Our crates are purchased for Platinum, a virtual currency that is available via a variety of means."

((Couldn't figure out how to quote him from a closed thread))

Originally Posted by wowdah

See here - I thought this as well. https://www.spacetimestudios.com/sho...ght=apple+odds

That's why I linked to that thread.

It makes sense if you think about it. If it only applied to lootboxes you buy theough IAPs (which is the vast majority of lootboxes in mobile games, very rarely do you have lootboxes purchasable with x dollars) then everyone would simply switch to this model. The thread I linked brought up that topic, I suggest you give it a read.

**Lethoiun** · 04-30-2018, 10:23 PM

I think sts should release the odds from the goodness of thier hearts, what's the harm

**wowdah** · 05-01-2018, 01:23 AM

I understand Ghoul, and I agree. But I doubt they will simply since it's more profitable/better for them to keep the odds unknown so people buy crates at the same rate - if people knew the odds they would probably buy at a lower rate. So as long as apple doesn't ding them for this, they'll keep the odds unknown.

**Lethoiun** · 05-01-2018, 07:02 AM

I'm interested to see vial droprate in arena

**Ghoul** · 05-01-2018, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by wowdah

I understand Ghoul, and I agree. But I doubt they will simply since it's more profitable/better for them to keep the odds unknown so people buy crates at the same rate - if people knew the odds they would probably buy at a lower rate. So as long as apple doesn't ding them for this, they'll keep the odds unknown.

Isn't that unethical? And tbh I think the community would appreciate it a lot more if STS were more transparent. Also I don't think people will reduce spending money on lockeds as it's the easiest way to get loot.

**Abuze** · 05-01-2018, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by badgirlchlo

justg recently responded to a thread like this, if locks were in store for say 5 dollars they would have to release droprates but there are multiple ways of acquiring platinum such as plat eggs crate keys and more so they do not need to release

This is complete bogus IMO. Take other major games for example, let's look at one specifically: Vainglory, uses in game currency called ICE and still displays the %chance of looting X item from their chest selection.

As said above there is no harm in displaying the % chance of looting a certain item, hopefully there's no fraud committed when this gets implemented. If the % chances of looting a certain item are legit, it makes the player try even harder to get the item they desire IMO.

**extrapayah** · 05-01-2018, 12:17 PM

uh oh, i usually don't threat people, but i'll punch kittens until sts release lootboxes rate, the closest kitten to me will be the next.

also a bit out of topic, another mobile game i know, also always release loot chance for rare/jackpot items from event bosses.

**badgirlchlo** · 05-01-2018, 12:25 PM

well, this is not a thread on whether right or wrong, moreso about if it is allowed or not, which it is.

**wowdah** · 05-01-2018, 12:44 PM

Because they chose not to do anything after the last thread, I doubt anything new will happen after this one :/

**intruders** · 05-02-2018, 12:28 AM

I think they just can't reveal loot chances of crates because there's no exact and constant number. I mean they adjust it over the time as they need.

Remember arcane shard price went down to 70k and they claimed they didn't change chance at all but before that people spent tons of RL money and gold to get it. Was like 100m at some point.

Another example is vials from arena chests.

**badgirlchlo** · 05-02-2018, 01:16 AM

Originally Posted by intruders

I think they just can't reveal loot chances of crates because there's no exact and constant number. I mean they adjust it over the time as they need.

Remember arcane shard price went down to 70k and they claimed they didn't change chance at all but before that people spent tons of RL money and gold to get it. Was like 100m at some point.

Another example is vials from arena chests.

It was 100m for a few reasons lol... first of all it was 41 cap and you needed it to craft arcane ring, and secondly because 41 was age of the plat farmers which RUINED the market due to cheaters

**Slowking** · 05-02-2018, 01:45 AM

Originally Posted by intruders

I think they just can't reveal loot chances of crates because there's no exact and constant number. I mean they adjust it over the time as they need.

Remember arcane shard price went down to 70k and they claimed they didn't change chance at all but before that people spent tons of RL money and gold to get it. Was like 100m at some point.

Another example is vials from arena chests.

Thats the point. The guidelines were put in place so that if a gaming company decides to adjust the droprates, its player-base would( and should) know. Transparency is the reason. We really require a dev or a mod to make a comment about this.