Decline in quality of PvP

[Caiahar]

Pallies might be OP, but their skills have a small delay. That delay could cause them to die.
Other hand, bird blast is almost immediate, so if a pallie casts drain, and bird shoots blast, if no dodge, most likely bird will be winner.

Pfft, you got dis point from me

Yeah, with damage as high as this, that extra half second is immense for a Pally. A bird can cast about 3-4 more spells that hit instantly in a span of 2-3 seconds than a Pally can.

Well, you didnt say it, so decided to say it for you :P

[Cheenivie]

I say PvP has been like this ever since they brought out angelic gear.

66 has been my limit since I believe anything above is pure luck, making anyone with money able to kill.

Come back to twink at 50-56 guys!

im at 50-61

[Waug]

Pallies might be OP, but their skills have a small delay. That delay could cause them to die.
Other hand, bird blast is almost immediate, so if a pallie casts drain, and bird shoots blast, if no dodge, most likely bird will be winner.

Is this a bad joke or lack of experience in current endgame pvp as bird against pallies.

2hit kill is obviously a problem, but that does not mean, anyone can 2hit kill anyone literally. You projected the fight as if blast hit pally dye, lol.

Skill delay is very minor factor coming to it latter. A pally can literally one hit kill (no auto just drain) a dex elite bow bird, if not dodged and bit luck need for this though. If the bird survived that hit without dodging then next hit (whatever skill or auto) will be deadly for the bird if not dodged again.

But bird can't 3hit (including auto) kill a pally in any way, if the pally knows that it's all about 2to 3hit kill, they'll mana shield first, initial heal will do the rest trick, in earlier caps when fight would last longer, mana was a problem then as being non pure int, but it's not now, so these str mages can spam heal and mana shield fearlessly.

Few more points I'd like to add to clarify more.

1> Bird has to ruin it's highest damaging skill i.e blast to break mana shield.

2> When somebody compare damage between these classes, one thing they miss that, pally have shield birds don't have, that mean for the same damaging skills birds hit would cause less damage on that mage, compare to mages hit on bird. In this way drain damage >> blast damage.

Pfft, you got dis point from me

Yeah, with damage as high as this, that extra half second is immense for a Pally. A bird can cast about 3-4 more spells that hit instantly in a span of 2-3 seconds than a Pally can.

This is extragation does not happen actually, it just the high auto weapon speed i.e dps, that seems like bird hitted more skills.

[blast]

Fbows should be usable Only on pve...fbows on pvp are way to op. Fbows are just like a shortcut to winning without using any strategy or skill which is obtained from experience and hard training. So there are just uselss all this time.

[Gaunab]

Is this a bad joke or lack of experience in current endgame pvp as bird against pallies.

2hit kill is obviously a problem, but that does not mean, anyone can 2hit kill anyone literally. You projected the fight as if blast hit pally dye, lol.

Skill delay is very minor factor coming to it latter. A pally can literally one hit kill (no auto just drain) a dex elite bow bird, if not dodged and bit luck need for this though. If the bird survived that hit without dodging then next hit (whatever skill or auto) will be deadly for the bird if not dodged again.

But bird can't 3hit (including auto) kill a pally in any way, if the pally knows that it's all about 2to 3hit kill, they'll mana shield first, initial heal will do the rest trick, in earlier caps when fight would last longer, mana was a problem then as being non pure int, but it's not now, so these str mages can spam heal and mana shield fearlessly.

Few more points I'd like to add to clarify more.

1> Bird has to ruin it's highest damaging skill i.e blast to break mana shield.

2> When somebody compare damage between these classes, one thing they miss that, pally have shield birds don't have, that mean for the same damaging skills birds hit would cause less damage on that mage, compare to mages hit on bird. In this way drain damage >> blast damage.


This is extragation does not happen actually, it just the high auto weapon speed i.e dps, that seems like bird hitted more skills.

No offense but if you are a 76 bird and struggle that much against pallies you either have the wrong combo or are just not playing smart enough. Sure, they can 2hit you, but when you blind first they barely hit anything through that 60 dodge on a bird. Unshielded I can often take them out with a root and a few arrows before they even have a chance to hit their nuke (because of the skilld delay of ice drain and lighting). Good birds kill pallies far more often than they die to them.

Also using drain to demonstrate how OP Pallies are is pretty ludicrous. It has the longest cooldown of all dmg skills, a long delay and gets dodged most of the time anyways. Blast hits for almost the same damage (enough to 1shot intmages and dexbirds without elite ring), does aoe dmg even to people who are out of your 12m range, triggers a deadly combo, pops manashields and regenerates faster.


Its not a certain class or build or skill that is OP and runis the balance of endgame PvP. Its certain stats that are getting too high on multiple class. On birds its dodge and damage (and hit%), on intmages its damage and crit (and hit%), on bears and pallies its dodge and damage and crit. And all classes have too low armor which corresponds with the high damage. Partially thats due to the lv9 buffs or due to the unbalanced gear.

[Roberto077]

I find it kind of annoying when people steal thunder in comments, so I'm just going to say one word:

Agreed.

[XghostzX]

@Gaunab - Aside from too low of armor, it's also how our Health Points are not proportional to the amount of damage a user can deal. I know it's been brought up a lot, but I would appreciate the tiniest change - if STS could increase our health pool by around 4-5x more.

[Zeus]

Is this a bad joke or lack of experience in current endgame pvp as bird against pallies.

2hit kill is obviously a problem, but that does not mean, anyone can 2hit kill anyone literally. You projected the fight as if blast hit pally dye, lol.

Skill delay is very minor factor coming to it latter. A pally can literally one hit kill (no auto just drain) a dex elite bow bird, if not dodged and bit luck need for this though. If the bird survived that hit without dodging then next hit (whatever skill or auto) will be deadly for the bird if not dodged again.

But bird can't 3hit (including auto) kill a pally in any way, if the pally knows that it's all about 2to 3hit kill, they'll mana shield first, initial heal will do the rest trick, in earlier caps when fight would last longer, mana was a problem then as being non pure int, but it's not now, so these str mages can spam heal and mana shield fearlessly.

Few more points I'd like to add to clarify more.

1> Bird has to ruin it's highest damaging skill i.e blast to break mana shield.

2> When somebody compare damage between these classes, one thing they miss that, pally have shield birds don't have, that mean for the same damaging skills birds hit would cause less damage on that mage, compare to mages hit on bird. In this way drain damage >> blast damage.



This is extragation does not happen actually, it just the high auto weapon speed i.e dps, that seems like bird hitted more skills.

Honestly, as you do not play end-game, and this do not have first hand experience, please do not spread information in a matter-of-fact manner.

The contents of this post is mainly theoretical & that's fine. The thing about theories though are that they are theories, not facts, so your "knowledge" is incorrect and you should not be spreading it around like if it were fact.

Also, birds are more than capable of firing off multiple instant hit skills in more than 3-4 seconds. Actually, since a bird has 4 instant hit skills at 12mm while a Mage has none, a bird can do a lot of damage before an elf's spells even hit.

[Caiahar]

Pallies/mage shoot drain, bird shoots blind, then Blast, crits, pally/mage doesn't dodge, then maybe game over. I see this when I go in endgame matches.

[Chickenrunnn]

I agree with all your words Mystical.

A fix is REALLY needed, for PvP as for CtF. The damage needs to be lowered, dodge also.

Old pvp days were gorgeous. Take the example of lvl66 cap : No dodging sets, very balanced classes, being skilled needed to kill; in a word, awesome game play.
Nowadays, mages hit 690 with 1 drain, birds 610 with 1 blast, and bears 1 beckon and 1 auto, GF, it's the end of the fight.

I have said, and still say, we need two separate sets: one for PvE and one for PvP.

Moreover, they should disable vanity powers in pvp and ctf (Triple vanity ring + black dragon set + founder), which truly make the user invincible. In addition, isn't pvp based on pure skills? Is having a substantial advantage normal?


Fixing and Balancing would take 1 day of programming. Is it truly an huge amount of work? 1 day of work, to save 3 months of game play.

So please devs, fix it, it is truly needed.

[KingFu]

I have said, and still say, we need two separate sets: one for PvE and one for PvP.

I say this because I agree with everything David had said, but by drastically decreasing dodge, it also affects PvE. A bear in PvE that doesn't dodge is basically worthless for crowd control. Yes, I can care less about if I am leading the group in kills-per-run. I also do not care to spam health pots (most mages don't heal anymore anyways.) But when I am being hit and stunned every .5 seconds, it inhibits my ability to tank and frustrates the crap out of me.

With that said, I like how the Elite Boulder is set up. I am required to use almost full base strength, but still have 99% hit and very good armor, health, regen, and dodge. The issue, like David said, with the other two Elite weapons is their stats are uber-powered which make for fun PvE, but a frustrated PvP community. Two sets, though I know not feasible, would help.

Of course I still in the boat of class specific gear. May decrease diversity, but would also clear certain issues up. And don't get me started having the "charge" skill we so long asked for for bears being given to the two new classes.

Very valid point. PvE is often overlooked because people consider it such a simple mechanic as opposed to PvP. However, what would restrict people from bringing the dodge PvE sets into the PvP maps?

To the mages not healing, that is because the sets make it so easy they don't need to know their class. I seem to be using Sewers as an example a lot, but that's merely because it was (arguably) the best and most balanced campaign. Back then, if a Mage didn't heal, or a bear didn't tank, people wouldn't tolerate it and boot. People like you who clearly know how to play shouldn't have a problem finding an efficient Mage that heals to farm with. Fort had little to no dodge, and it worked fine when farming. I think removing the OP sets, if anything, would force people to do their jobs. Those who can't handle it, will leave the game. Kind of like filtering out the players that really don't know what they're doing. Overall, I think sets that would require team work to farm (bears using taunt to actually take damage, mages buffing and healing, etc), would either make people start, or just stop altogether. Thus, improving the quality of the average player.

Also, I think part of it would be to lower the difficulty of the campaigns. The difficulty level of BSM now I'd say requires overpowered sets and elixirs to realistically beat, or at the very least they make it a hell of a lot easier. That makes people be much more dependent on their 4x combos and elite sets, allowing them to kind of sit back and not put in as much effort. On the other hand, you could argue a higher difficulty would give the players that don't do their job too much trouble to continue, but elixirs would become practically a necessity. So there are valid arguments to both sides.

Feel free to disagree though, as you know PvE much better than I do. I don't want that aspect of the game going ignored, but I do think PvE is a little more flexible and adaptive than PvP.

[nick_lorry]

Very valid point. PvE is often overlooked because people consider it such a simple mechanic as opposed to PvP. However, what would restrict people from bringing the dodge PvE sets into the PvP maps?

To the mages not healing, that is because the sets make it so easy they don't need to know their class. I seem to be using Sewers as an example a lot, but that's merely because it was (arguably) the best and most balanced campaign. Back then, if a Mage didn't heal, or a bear didn't tank, people wouldn't tolerate it and boot. People like you who clearly know how to play shouldn't have a problem finding an efficient Mage that heals to farm with. Fort had little to no dodge, and it worked fine when farming. I think removing the OP sets, if anything, would force people to do their jobs. Those who can't handle it, will leave the game. Kind of like filtering out the players that really don't know what they're doing. Overall, I think sets that would require team work to farm (bears using taunt to actually take damage, mages buffing and healing, etc), would either make people start, or just stop altogether. Thus, improving the quality of the average player.

Also, I think part of it would be to lower the difficulty of the campaigns. The difficulty level of BSM now I'd say requires overpowered sets and elixirs to realistically beat, or at the very least they make it a hell of a lot easier. That makes people be much more dependent on their 4x combos and elite sets, allowing them to kind of sit back and not put in as much effort. On the other hand, you could argue a higher difficulty would give the players that don't do their job too much trouble to continue, but elixirs would become practically a necessity. So there are valid arguments to both sides.

Feel free to disagree though, as you know PvE much better than I do. I don't want that aspect of the game going ignored, but I do think PvE is a little more flexible and adaptive than PvP.

I agree! PvP sucks and needs to be fixed, STS does nothing and ignores us all and steals our money wahh wahh wahhhh

[XghostzX]

I agree! PvP sucks and needs to be fixed, STS does nothing and ignores us all and steals our money wahh wahh wahhhh

Awesome 3 posts, Nick?...

[Caiahar]

I agree! PvP sucks and needs to be fixed, STS does nothing and ignores us all and steals our money wahh wahh wahhhh

Awesome 3 posts, Nick?...

Maybe new to forums but not in game?
o_O

[dudetus]

Lots of valid points and ideas thrown in this thread.

About Pally vs Bird I think I have currently the best insight as I play PvP only with my lvl 76 Bird. It all depends on luck in that as well. Unlike most ppl think, it doesn't depend on if my blast hits but it's all about how my blind and roots hit and how pally's fire hits me. Technically I will win if pally misses the fire as I get close enough to setup my combo but if my blind misses, the pally has a chance even if his fire misses due to Savage sets immense damage.

IMO the easiest way to fix unbalanced PvP is to nerf all buffs tremendously and increasing both armor and health pool. Best ideas are always good to throw around but we have to be realistic in STS wise.

PvP and PvE sets would be more than outstanding. The way this would be done effectively would be that:

1. Elite items couldn't be used in PvP arenas
2. A new stat implemented in PvP gear which increases armor, health, mana and damage only in PvP arenas.

As Elite gear would be disabled in PvP arenas (Elite weps, superduperfastcapreward) the use of regular gear would be decreased especially for birds. But if STS somehow truly turned their attention to PL once in a while, they would add a stat which would make PvP gear superior in PvP arenas while PvE gear would stay superior to PvP gear in PvE. I'm not talking about big differences, but there should be enough difference in stats that PvP gear is preferred in PvP and PvE gear is preferred in PvE. But both sets should still be viable in both PvP and PvE as too big of a gap would completely seperate the PvE and PvP community. PvP gear would be optainable only from a special PvP gear vendor, and to be eligible to buy the set, u would need enough PvP kills to buy them. There would be different lvl sets which u could purchase. The catch would be that u would need those PvP kills only at current lvl area to buy that lvled PvP gear, not like "15k kills overall and u can buy this set". As an example, u would need to PvP at lvl 75-76 PvP to get that gear's required kills, like 500 kills for one piece of armor, which u would unlock gradually piece by piece. PvP simply needs some incentive. Adding PvP gear would be the first step for doing so as PvP community is really large in PL.

IMO Elite Rings shouldn't be disabled in PvP arenas. Sure, they could be nerfed IMO but to actually disabling them would be a slap to veterans face. I've earned my 3 piece black drag elite ring.

[Zerious]

Hmmm... Perhaps the devs could make "PVP-only" equips as well as "PVE-only" equips? I feel like that's the only way there is going to be a balance in both relms of PL at this point.

The PVE players need certain stats in order to execute their role properly. That's understandable considering how brutal some of the maps may seem, having these "OP" stats may actually be most necessary for survival. The way "balance" is achieved in PVE is by identifying which classes can execute their role(s) fluidly vs other classes executing their role(s) fluidly against the PVE mobs and bosses.

The PVP player need certain stats that will aid them in their own functioning role (ie: Birds=dps, Bears/Rhinos=tanky, Mages=AoE nuke, Foxes= cross dps-nuke). Now having a faster pace of PVP as the level of PVP increases is an ideal concept. However, there isn't a way to establish balance in PVP when the PVE players require equips that cause an imbalance when the classes are fared against each other. Therefore, if there were equips that offer stats in PVP and also equips that offer stats in PVE, balance could be established in both realms.

Not only would both branches of the PL community be happy with something like this, but it would also present STS with more money-making opportunities as well. I'm not saying to make PVP or PVE plat-based, But perhaps different maps to farm for PVP items/sets and maps to farm PVE based sets. There would be shifts in the economy, allowing STS to offer second-(or third)-to-best equips from premium packs to kickstart players as they pursue better equipment in their campaign maps. Perhaps an improved Luck Elixir for these maps could be available?

I'm saying this problem as not "totaled" PL; it can still be fixed. But as PL's community, I feel it is us who need to find ideas to help STS help us enjoy our experience. Giving them blank rants about "dodge OP", or "Birds OP" only gives them half the information and no options. Who'll be testing these things? STS? Of course not, they're too busy for that. I think if they had players volunteer to help them troubleshoot, and I mean really go in depth with mechanics the way Physiologic did with his guides, then STS might actually give these things a shot.

If I'm not the only one willing to donate some time trying to fix the problem, then let me be the first to say "I volunteer to run tests for PL PVP"

[KingFu]

Who'll be testing these things? STS? Of course not, they're too busy for that. I think if they had players volunteer to help them troubleshoot, and I mean really go in depth with mechanics the way Physiologic did with his guides, then STS might actually give these things a shot.

Issuing ideas is one thing, but it sounds like you're talking on a whole next level. They haven't needed those things in the past, and they don't need those things for AL. Proof they only need to put in some effort, they don't need people laying out their work for them. They know the mechanics, from every aspect, we don't. As players I think we're capable of giving ideas and suggestions, but not capable of what it sounds like you're talking. I personally don't think a good explanation as to why STS isn't trying these things is because we're not going Physio style and laying out all the numbers and mechanics. As I said, they haven't needed that in the past.

Just my opinion. Even if we laid it out, they'd still need effort and to test it. They're not gonna trust "volunteer" players to test it lol. If they don't have the effort to try finding a solution with their absolute understanding of the game and their mechanics, they won't have the effort to try and implement our laid out numbers. Or am I misinterpreting what you're saying we should do?

[CrimsonTider]

Didn't want to copy and paste David, but what I meant was for there to be a way to have two completely different sets. If they can disable elixirs in certain maps, why can't they assign a code to certain sets to disable them PvP? Just the old man thinking out loud.

And I do agree with PvE needing a "tone down." However, I don't see this happening as this is where STS makes their money: Make campaigns ridiculously hard, peeps buy elixirs.

I am just afraid the game is so far in its last stages that they may tweak a few things, but not provide the overhaul needed.

[Kraze]

Didn't want to copy and paste David, but what I meant was for there to be a way to have two completely different sets. If they can disable elixirs in certain maps, why can't they assign a code to certain sets to disable them PvP? Just the old man thinking out loud.

And I do agree with PvE needing a "tone down." However, I don't see this happening as this is where STS makes their money: Make campaigns ridiculously hard, peeps buy elixirs.

I am just afraid the game is so far in its last stages that they may tweak a few things, but not provide the overhaul needed.

Always room for you guys in AL...just saying

[CrimsonTider]

Always room for you guys in AL...just saying

Traitor! Off with your head!!

(Oh wait, we did that back in Jan. LOL!!)