Discussion - Should Guild Age Be A Guild Rank Criteria?

[Thrindal]

How about adding "Last Login Date" to the guild member listing. This way abandoned accounts can be removed from a guild to keep average activity up. I would much prefer this to help us manage our guilds than adding a static ranking to the Guild rankings.

[Zeus]

How about adding "Last Login Date" to the guild member listing. This way abandoned accounts can be removed from a guild to keep average activity up. I would much prefer this to help us manage our guilds than adding a static ranking to the Guild rankings.

I agree with that, but this would be essentially the activity stat, no?

[Aziiii]

guild age not a valid stat? ummmmm......wait what ...? it's not a bug or glitch ...it's age

[leoakre]

I never said account age! You can have an old account but a new toon...said toon age (along with the amount of activity on that particular toon)! Same thoughts as people saying they can get old guild titles to boost! I don't twink so all my activity is on one toon!

>.<

[Zeus]

guild age not a valid stat? ummmmm......wait what ...? it's not a bug or glitch ...it's age

Age doesn't mean better, it just means you're old and have been around for a while (along with the other factors that are associated with longevity). A static rank is not a good idea to add, IMHO.

[Aziiii]

static and longetivity are one of the things that keep "old" players in this game. U learn from them ....pve...pvp...merching ..

[leoakre]

Age doesn't mean better, it just means you're old and have been around for a while (along with the other factors that are associated with longevity). A static rank is not a good idea to add, IMHO.

Factors associated with longevity...hmm, I hope you mean experience and not arthritis!

[inkredible]

Look at guild ranks as whole this discussion is based on whether guild age is as valid as the others
Which it is if you look at the pros and cons .. In the end Guild age is a valid rank .. We can argue all day why each category isn't valid and no one will win because each category has it's pros and cons and are very well debatable

[Ardbeg]

The Guild rank already is based on some stats which can easily be manipulated, as pointed out above.
I fully subscribe to Falmears points here.
Also it clearly shows a bias towards pvp.

as Zeus pointed out, guild age can be manipulated too, if someone feels the need to.

But maintaining a guild over a long time shows a lot of dedication, experience and loyalty not only from gms, officers, recruiters, but also from their members,
which make the task worthwhile and fun for the whole community, that a guild is supposed to be besides the Guild Rank.

So i would really like to see this very special "statpoint" counting towards guildrank.

[falmear]

I've already explained why it isn't really an advantage. All you have to do is rename to an older guild name and your problem is solved. I've also explained while even though there are 13 other categories, it does not matter if there is an immovable outlier present.

So where does this leave us? Essentially a huge anchor on any of the newer guilds that they won't be able to shake off.

You need to find someone who started a guild, be happy with the name of that guild, then get everyone to transfer over. Not is not guaranteed that everyone will follow. As far as I know there is no way to rename a guild unless its done through support. And support can deny any requests to rename.

[yasshh]

The Guild rank already is based on some stats which can easily be manipulated, as pointed out above.
I fully subscribe to Falmears points here.
Also it clearly shows a bias towards pvp.

as Zeus pointed out, guild age can be manipulated too, if someone feels the need to.

But maintaining a guild over a long time shows a lot of dedication, experience and loyalty not only from gms, officers, recruiters, but also from their members,
which make the task worthwhile and fun for the whole community, that a guild is supposed to be besides the Guild Rank.

So i would really like to see this very special "statpoint" counting towards guildrank.

That

[GoodSyntax]

Personally, I would like to see Average Elite Time, and kills per day (PvE and PvP) added in. Most of these other stats can be manipulated or can be held by a handful of top players in the guild. Averaging in across the entire membership gives a better representation of the skill level in the guild, which is what I thought was the originally intent of the rankings.

Frankly, I disagree with the strong emphasis in PvP stats. The only stats which do not have a heavy impact from PvP are APs, PvE kills, Avg Acct Age and Activity levels. Of all the stats used for ranking 6 are pure PvP, 2 are pure PvE....kind of unbalanced, and artifically rewards PvP guilds.

When I picture what constitutes a top guild, I would look at the following:

Average APs per member (not total APs)
Average PvE kills per member
Average PvE K/D per member
Average PvE kills per day
Average PvP kills per member (TDM and CTF combined)
Average PvP K/D per member
Average PvP kills per day
Average Flags per member
Average Elite Time per member (sum of best time across all elite maps, only members who have completed all maps can be used for calculation)
1, 7, 30d Active %


I think that this would give a better sense of overall guild activity and skill level. Also, this would highlight what the focus is for the guild in general. There are many guilds that just get the Elite APs, then spend the rest of their time in PvP, and vice-versa. In those cases, the kills per day stats would tell you immediately what type of guild they are.

I know a lot of players that are currently in guild that PM me daily for elite runs because their guild doesn't do elites. Back when I was PvPing, I had the opposite case, where PvE guild members were partying with me to CTF.

Just my opinion though...

[Zeus]

You need to find someone who started a guild, be happy with the name of that guild, then get everyone to transfer over. Not is not guaranteed that everyone will follow. As far as I know there is no way to rename a guild unless its done through support. And support can deny any requests to rename.

90% of the guild is active in the last 7 days and nearly a full 100 is active in 30 days. I doubt it'll be that hard to accomplish.

If we were able to merge guilds, a guild rename is hardly an issue.

[Zeus]

Personally, I would like to see Average Elite Time, and kills per day (PvE and PvP) added in. Most of these other stats can be manipulated or can be held by a handful of top players in the guild. Averaging in across the entire membership gives a better representation of the skill level in the guild, which is what I thought was the originally intent of the rankings.

Frankly, I disagree with the strong emphasis in PvP stats. The only stats which do not have a heavy impact from PvP are APs, PvE kills, Avg Acct Age and Activity levels. Of all the stats used for ranking 6 are pure PvP, 2 are pure PvE....kind of unbalanced, and artifically rewards PvP guilds.

When I picture what constitutes a top guild, I would look at the following:

Average APs per member (not total APs)
Average PvE kills per member
Average PvE K/D per member
Average PvE kills per day
Average PvP kills per member (TDM and CTF combined)
Average PvP K/D per member
Average PvP kills per day
Average Flags per member
Average Elite Time per member (sum of best time across all elite maps, only members who have completed all maps can be used for calculation)
1, 7, 30d Active %


I think that this would give a better sense of overall guild activity and skill level. Also, this would highlight what the focus is for the guild in general. There are many guilds that just get the Elite APs, then spend the rest of their time in PvP, and vice-versa. In those cases, the kills per day stats would tell you immediately what type of guild they are.

I know a lot of players that are currently in guild that PM me daily for elite runs because their guild doesn't do elites. Back when I was PvPing, I had the opposite case, where PvE guild members were partying with me to CTF.

Just my opinion though...

I agree to this post. Well thought out, Good!

[falmear]

1) Yes, you are right. I never said that the other statistics do not have the benefit of time. Here's what the other statistics have that guild age does not have though: the ability to be changed. So, to say guild age is meaningless does not mean that number of kills or captures is meaningless as you can always manipulate those stats. How does that happen? Well, if you take a look in contest section, top guilds do PvE kill competitions to boost kills. Inviting avid PvE players is also another strategy. Longevity does equate for some kind of standing in society, you're right. However, it should not be used as an anchor to pull all the other guilds down. As this is a weekly guild leaderboard, a yearly stat should not be going into it. That is manipulating results through the use of outliers.

2) Timed Runs should be represented. I think they should be represented by the amount of records set by members during the current season. Again, as I've stated before, as this is a weekly leaderboard, previous seasons results should not be calculated into it. If you want a yearly leaderboard, I've given you the link to that in previous comments and as a result, longevity does equate to some kind of standing in society. DM is #1 on the yearly leaderboard!

1) Most stats are are mostly carried by people at the top. I just have to look at my own stats and in many categories I count for more then one person. This is why guilds at the top are formed by merging multiple guilds. To get these top players in the same guild to boost the ranks. So its just musical chairs at this point. Using guild age as a factor will reduce this behavior. And also demonstrate that other guilds have been better at keeping their members together and functioning as a guild. If your guild is always having drama, disbanding and reforming as something new how does this represent you being a top guild? You're just good at disbanding, reforming & merging.

2) No current season times should not be used. Because records haven't been set, they only count at the end of the season. You only get credit for kills you get. So you only should get credit for records you have set at the end of each season. Because this is when the banner is given. Also I know people will game the system using the arena to set records. This will limit this behavior.

[inkredible]

Personally, I would like to see Average Elite Time, and kills per day (PvE and PvP) added in. Most of these other stats can be manipulated or can be held by a handful of top players in the guild. Averaging in across the entire membership gives a better representation of the skill level in the guild, which is what I thought was the originally intent of the rankings.

Frankly, I disagree with the strong emphasis in PvP stats. The only stats which do not have a heavy impact from PvP are APs, PvE kills, Avg Acct Age and Activity levels. Of all the stats used for ranking 6 are pure PvP, 2 are pure PvE....kind of unbalanced, and artifically rewards PvP guilds.

When I picture what constitutes a top guild, I would look at the following:

Average APs per member (not total APs)
Average PvE kills per member
Average PvE K/D per member
Average PvE kills per day
Average PvP kills per member (TDM and CTF combined)
Average PvP K/D per member
Average PvP kills per day
Average Flags per member
Average Elite Time per member (sum of best time across all elite maps, only members who have completed all maps can be used for calculation)
1, 7, 30d Active %


I think that this would give a better sense of overall guild activity and skill level. Also, this would highlight what the focus is for the guild in general. There are many guilds that just get the Elite APs, then spend the rest of their time in PvP, and vice-versa. In those cases, the kills per day stats would tell you immediately what type of guild they are.

I know a lot of players that are currently in guild that PM me daily for elite runs because their guild doesn't do elites. Back when I was PvPing, I had the opposite case, where PvE guild members were partying with me to CTF.

Just my opinion though...

For kdr it doesn't work like that
Kdr is calculated by adding everyone's kills and adding everyone's death and then dividing them if you do it per member ... Lmfao twinks got like 1k kdr .. Which then adds roughly .5 ^ to everyones tkdr if the guild consist 500 members

[GoodSyntax]

I agree....the twinks ruin the stat, but then you look a the other stats which knocks them out of contention. Twinks will fail on Average APs, Average Elite Time and Average PvE kills per day.

[Zeus]

1) Most stats are are mostly carried by people at the top. I just have to look at my own stats and in many categories I count for more then one person. This is why guilds at the top are formed by merging multiple guilds. To get these top players in the same guild to boost the ranks. So its just musical chairs at this point. Using guild age as a factor will reduce this behavior. And also demonstrate that other guilds have been better at keeping their members together and functioning as a guild. If your guild is always having drama, disbanding and reforming as something new how does this represent you being a top guild? You're just good at disbanding, reforming & merging.

2) No current season times should not be used. Because records haven't been set, they only count at the end of the season. You only get credit for kills you get. So you only should get credit for records you have set at the end of each season. Because this is when the banner is given. Also I know people will game the system using the arena to set records. This will limit this behavior.

We have a difference in opinion then and neither of us arguing will change that, Falmear.

We've both put our points and we've both argued with logic yet neither is more right than the other, so, I think we should just leave it at that or we will continue yet another page (which I don't want to do as it's a waste of time).

[GoodSyntax]

The intent isn't to showcase how much of a badass your guild is in a single category, it should be about, "Hey, we are great at everything!"

You want elite runs? Look at our average Elite Times, all of our membership is great.
You want PvP? We are tops in PvP KDR, Kills per day and Flags.
You need APs? Our membership averages 17k APs, we can help.
You want an active guild? We have 99% 1d active!

See how that is much different than saying we have 3m APs mostly spread over our top 40 or 50 players, the rest of our membership are a bunch of nubs. Or, we've got two guys with 25k flags - I don't know about the rest of them. I've got 100k PvP kills....the rest of our guild averages about 500. I've run every elite map....but I think I'm the only one in the guild that has done that.

[Zeus]

The intent isn't to showcase how much of a badass your guild is in a single category, it should be about, "Hey, we are great at everything!"

You want elite runs? Look at our average Elite Times, all of our membership is great.
You want PvP? We are tops in PvP KDR, Kills per day and Flags.
You need APs? Our membership averages 17k APs, we can help.
You want an active guild? We have 99% 1d active!

See how that is much different than saying we have 3m APs mostly spread over our top 40 or 50 players, the rest of our membership are a bunch of nubs. Or, we've got two guys with 25k flags - I don't know about the rest of them. I've got 100k PvP kills....the rest of our guild averages about 500. I've run every elite map....but I think I'm the only one in the guild that has done that.

Yes, yes, yes!

Perhaps a whole rework over the current stats system.