Juggernaut Change Discussion

[Serancha]

If this adjustment is about PvP and/or twink warriors being OP, then feel free to disregard this post.

However, I honestly don't believe that changing Jugg is a viable way to "fix" the warrior situation in PvE, which is the main concern players have with class balance at the moment.

The entire problem with warriors in PvE is that they slow down runs immensely, they find it increasingly difficult to hold aggro, and skills that should be blocking boss windups are no longer doing that. I don't see warriors in PvE having any issues with lack of armour or health, making this adjustment irrelevant for that aspect of the game.

The way the Juggernaut taunt is set up just doesn't work in a situation where you are supposed to be holding aggro against high damage, fast-hitting companions (rogues & mages). The length of the cooldown also makes this skill impractical at best in PvE.

I think it would be better to give chest splitter a proper reach and allow it to block windups again, and possibly give windmill back some of its original oomph and have it strike 5 mobs not 3, or else throw taunt on Vengeful Blood.

Another option would be to make it so that if a warrior is present, the party has 50% immunity to the debilitating effect of the map - (this would be stuns in Ren'Gol or poison pools in Shuyal, etc.)

[Zeus]

Juggernaut's lengthy cooldown means it is essentially a single-use skill in any given pvp battle. It's great to see the health boost portion skill finally be made scalable. My concern with attaching the scale to the armor value (other than the ridiculous permanent aimed shot debuff mentioned by Madnex) is that it would end up being confusing. Players would be stuck having to make a complex calculation to determine the actual benefit to them personally. It may be less interesting, but I support the level scalar where the health benefit is based on level. Straightforward is better when you're spec-ing in game, both for new players and veterans.

Another thought is that it seems disruptive, unfair and upsetting to take away almost all of the expected benefit that shark (lower level pvp) warriors have had for years. If this change had been made during the level 26 cap you'd hear justified accusations that STS was nerfing warriors. Imagine the outcry retroactively... yikes! I think pinning the 300/500 health benefit to a 'fair' level like level 21 may be a possible solution.

	Tap (+10/lvl)	Charge (tap*1.66)
1	100	167
6	150	250
11	200	333
16	250	417
21	300	500
26	350	583
31	400	667
36	450	750
41	500	833
46	550	917

I hope sometime in the very near future developers seriously address Aimed Shot. This one skill is responsible for nearly all claims of class imbalance and all the drama has come with them. It gives rogues insanely overpowered damage output that will only get worse with each level cap. I've heard comments like: "...rename the game to Rogue Legends." AS is a game-breaker that's never been seriously addressed. Juggernaut isn't nearly enough to balance out AS, but it should be.

The Mage buffs came due to aimed shot's capabilities. Nerf that and everything else has to go backwards as well. Don't forget that lightning hits pretty dang hard these days too - enough to one combo me.

[Dimitrian]

Welp,at least they found out warriors exist.
Now they have to make them not slowing runs in pve.

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[rustygun]

The Mage buffs came due to aimed shot's capabilities. Nerf that and everything else has to go backwards as well. Don't forget that lightning hits pretty dang hard these days too - enough to one combo me.

Only difference with aim and lightening is armor reduce on aim and %25 hit chance reduce on lightening all else is pretty much the same %250 dmg increase on critical is same as aim and lightening but lightning can hit multiple targets too lol... I see lightening kill rogues behind me really living up to its real time reputation lol

[geeman75]

I agree with you Zeus completely.
I'm glad they are finally going to show some love to tanks but this won't help much at all...

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[rustygun]

Just let jug be like hitting a brick wall we still have tons of weaknesses to exploit deflect DMG on jugg is also another idea... Dont nerf us please I was just about to strip my tank and invest in mage..

[Kakashis]

God, I twink as a tank at 33 with the best gears but quit because the jug could be broken so easily by rogues who can one shot crit through 25% The only thing this is going to do at that level will be to heal 200 less hp and still the jug breaks. Either make the cool down a bit shorter or make the % that it heals a bit higher or make the jug last longer. You're not really helping warriors other than nerfing the low level twinks. In fact at 46, you're roughly the same as now which is no improvement at all.

[rustygun]

If this adjustment is about PvP and/or twink warriors being OP, then feel free to disregard this post.

However, I honestly don't believe that changing Jugg is a viable way to "fix" the warrior situation in PvE, which is the main concern players have with class balance at the moment.

The entire problem with warriors in PvE is that they slow down runs immensely, they find it increasingly difficult to hold aggro, and skills that should be blocking boss windups are no longer doing that. I don't see warriors in PvE having any issues with lack of armour or health, making this adjustment irrelevant for that aspect of the game.

The way the Juggernaut taunt is set up just doesn't work in a situation where you are supposed to be holding aggro against high damage, fast-hitting companions (rogues & mages). The length of the cooldown also makes this skill impractical at best in PvE.

I think it would be better to give chest splitter a proper reach and allow it to block windups again, and possibly give windmill back some of its original oomph and have it strike 5 mobs not 3, or else throw taunt on Vengeful Blood.

Another option would be to make it so that if a warrior is present, the party has 50% immunity to the debilitating effect of the map - (this would be stuns in Ren'Gol or poison pools in Shuyal, etc.)

Good point too pve aspect need consideration and yes I dont need excess armor in pve but I feel useless in party And yes Chest Spliter Is a Tank aim shot but it have no aim... you'll miss target would be better if you still auto hit without letting go of joystick this handicap allow target to gain unreachable distance expect to miss %50 of the time

[rustygun]

God, I twink as a tank at 33 with the best gears but quit because the jug could be broken so easily by rogues who can one shot crit through 25% The only thing this is going to do at that level will be to heal 200 less hp and still the jug breaks. Either make the cool down a bit shorter or make the % that it heals a bit higher or make the jug last longer. You're not really helping warriors other than nerfing the low level twinks. In fact at 46, you're roughly the same as now which is no improvement at all.

Yes seems to be the case here..

[rustygun]

As long as a tank heal HP should be fully restored like rogue and mage I let my HP drop %2 on day heal and after heal cycle complete with overtime heal I'm still short by %10 I have to wait until CD and heal again

[Zeus]

These are good discussion points. If the primary concern is also the PvP effect of armor debuffs from Rogues and some PvE content, I have another idea that may help.

A charged Juggernaut provides immunity to armor debuff effects and removes any current armor debuffs from themselves would help, as an added component to one of the upgrade skills. This, in theory would alleviate the major down point to this change similar to what Zeus is describing. The casting warrior would receive the immunity for the duration of the buff, and nearby allies could receive a one off cleansing of armor reducing debuffs. It could be reapplied of course by a follow up aimshot, but could prove circumstantially relevant.

A secondary consideration with the scale increase per level is possible, however some numbers would have to be crunched to see what that would look like at an exaggerated level cap.

Good thoughts, keep the feedback coming.

This is great, however as mentioned before...the values you are currently proposing still need to be buffed up by 5-10% IMO. Otherwise, it just makes lower level tanks too weak and only fixes end game.

So, tanks would essentially gain a 400ish armor boost, depending on their level of armor while jugg being close to the static numbers it used to have (at end game). I think, this, will be an appropriate buff for tanks. It is not as if this makes tanks unkillable, it just makes them almost unstoppable while on this skill which is the intention of a skill named juggernaut.

Anyone looking to kill a tank now will have to adjust their skill timings to know when to do damage and when not to.

On PVE side, I think this would be welcome as well.

+1 for me.

Thanks for taking my advice into account!

[Shobhit Chaturvedi]

I don't find this any useful! We were asking for buff not a debuff

[extrapayah]

i'm with thundrys with how juggernaut's health scale by giving an initial value and then scale based on character level (in his example he gave 100 health as initial value, probably a bigger value is prefered, but hey, i don't pvp much), and agree to some degree about AS, AS make rogue a spellcaster, but probably it is what make AL's rogue unique

also, a bit out of topic though, any skill that has a fixed value (not percentage) should scale by character's level, because devs made the skills' mana consumption grow by level, imagine how bad it is a character that don't spec a full primary attribute with this system (mana consumption increase per character level, but effectiveness is not, depends purely on stat)

and yes with only change in how jugg scale its hp buffs, it won't help solving warrior's problem in pve, but the consideration in the original was all about pvp, so pve players can't say much about it, because how different balance in pvp compared to pve

[debitmandiri]

How about scale with hp ?
15% hp tap, 20% hp charged.
Armor value is too low.
And plus that armor reduction debuff immunity. Come on, warrior should be a real tank, a front wall

[Mariohekmat]

Jugg should be unbreakable and the CD time is really really high make it 30 sec at least warriors needs major skills buff i cant vs a rogue or mage these days lol cuz jugg is breaking so fast even in clash and pve my opinions are
1- jugg be unbreakable lasts for 15 sec and CD time 30sec
2- vb do more dmg in pve and applies to near by allies so warrriors can be back to be pve again , and in pvp vb is needed in clashes for mana or when warrior vs warrior vb should give +1k hp if charged and %5 higher dmg than it gives now or %2.5
3- skyward smash this skill is being useless atm u cant use it in pvp cuz ull die fast without feeble
4- windmill is a pve skill it should do more dmg and less CD time
5- chest spilter is a good skill but it misses targets alot so it should be like skyward never misses a target
6- rallying cry was a usefull skill before cuz of the speed the gives in clash but not anymore cuz of nekro basicly its a dead skill Let rallying cry give u an armor buff that applies to ur allies + higher speed than nekro for both pvp/pve

[Metoxx]

I was thinking on what if Jugg hp bonus demand on the armor value...
Example: 2500 armor gives the exact 2500hp as well.
Normal skill tap gives 50% and charged gives 100% hp bonus...

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[Ravager]

There are many great suggestions listed here but its hard to say which will be optimal. What matters to me is that after these changes are applied, please don't abandon this thread in case we need to adjust/revise things.

[Jazzi]

I can't comment at all on the low levels as I don't do pvp at twink levels. For endgame the proposed change seems like a nerf to the tanks. Especially the ones with low to mid gear. The latter have more like 2200-2500 armour and as a result will get less health than they are currently getting. Further they are the ones who actually have problems in PvP, not those maxed and skilled warriors. The maxed and skilled ones can hold for a long time!

Some people here point out the perma debuff of aimed shot. However all pets used in PvP nowadays have 15% or 20% armour reduction on their passive. In those not organised PvP games in TDM most people just resort to using a nekro, or a mari, or a singe. In many games I have encountered 4 or 5 nekros on each team. I am 100% sure that the 20% armour reduction of nekro's passive attack is active 100% of the time. So changing how aimed shot works won't help at all. In this regard giving charged jugg an immunity to armour debuffs is a great idea! Imho considering how long the cooldown is maybe the skill should get a short stun and slow immunities too.

Moving on those changes won't help the warrior class in PvE, which is the part of the game where the whole class is lacking the most. The only way for a warrior to be really useful and not to slow the pt is to use the new lvl 46 mythic. However the efficiency of the weapon is increased by using more attacking skills, thus making using jugg contra-productive, as it would reduce the number of procs (let alone the super long cooldown). In this regards I think that additional changes to the warrior class are needed.

P.S. I have done extensive testing in planar tombs and elite Ren'gol (only grotto and mines) and contrary to what some players claim in this thread a skilled warrior with the new weapon is about as fast as a mage with maxed gear (40%+ crit maxed mages are still faster though).

[greekAL]

isnt bad idea at all if dont count the armor debuffs! and i think a cd at 30 sec would be perfect! atm all the chars hv small cd and 45 secs of jugger is a bit pain! ty for trying to fix again our tanks

[Befs]

First. I'm not sure cara is getting a proper thanking for at least trying.

Second, here is my summary of additions.

1. What Zues said, would be best as charge = no debuffs

2. Party damage buff based off of how low tank's health is (lower = more damage) not going more than a 30% buff

3. More aggressive scaling

4. Shorter cd!!