Juggernaut Change Discussion

[Froxanthar]

Now all we need is the lower cooldown.

[ucupduyeh]

.FYI:Warriors are the most loyal players.if you treat them nice

U re dam right dude

[Zeus]

2.5% hp regain seems quite low. For a warrior with 9500hp for example, that would only be 237hp. But with the other extras it may be decent. Rotating Nekro with juggernaut seems more logical now. Everyone is probably going to spec DOT off once again.

In pvp when I tested long ago, I think charged jugg only granted 450 hp due to the global pvp nerf rather than the 500 hp. Would the nerf be applied to this as well?

True, but armor doubling practically and 65% jugg reduction aim should be hitting 1k or less under jugg effects.

[Pedgon]

2.5% hp regain seems quite low. For a warrior with 9500hp for example, that would only be 237hp. But with the other extras it may be decent. Rotating Nekro with juggernaut seems more logical now. Everyone is probably going to spec DOT off once again.

In pvp when I tested long ago, I think charged jugg only granted 450 hp due to the global pvp nerf rather than the 500 hp. Would the nerf be applied to this as well?

I was thinking about this upgrade too..2.5% HP seems very low actually, and with only 33% chance to proc..humm not sure about this being better than before!

How about making it 5-7% with same 33% chance to proc, or change the chance to proc to 50-60% and maintain the 2.5% HP regain?

And I also think the cooldown should be reduced..coz 45 sec?? zzz too long..almost double time of the 2nd longest skill cd in game! =/ Make it 30-35 sec, this seems totally fair! As it is right now, tanks fight for 30 sec with 3 skills only, and we can't forget our attack skills have already long cooldowns, for example, skyward smash 4 sec and axe 7 sec.

The other suggestions for juggernaut are great, exactly what I've been saying, thank you!

[Bmwmsix]

Omg 7 pages about one broken skill? Lets not talk about cs *.%

Warrior need Dash on charging Cs!

Ps: Juggernaut is not be used either pve ( Cd is ridiculous anno 19Th century) nor pvp (because of one button no charge class)

[Carapace]

Make jugg taunt ability regain mana every time we are hit by a monster or player. So we can at least choose between tanking with jugg or dealing dmg with veng....tired of relying on pots.

Vengeful Blood is the skill which provides mana as a return, and we don't want to double dip the abilities.

[Zeus]

I was thinking about this upgrade too..2.5% HP seems very low actually, and with only 33% chance to proc..humm not sure about this being better than before!

How about making it 5-7% with same 33% chance to proc, or change the chance to proc to 50-60% and maintain the 2.5% HP regain?

And I also think the cooldown should be reduced..coz 45 sec?? zzz too long..almost double time of the 2nd longest skill cd in game! =/ Make it 30-35 sec, this seems totally fair! As it is right now, tanks fight for 30 sec with 3 skills only, and we can't forget our attack skills have already long cooldowns, for example, skyward smash 4 sec and axe 7 sec.

The other suggestions for juggernaut are great, exactly what I've been saying, thank you!

With all the armor boost and whatnot, aimed shot will only be hitting 500-1k on critical hits. I would suggest if they are going to raise the HP return, then raise it to 3.5% and 50% chance to heal. Anything more is really pushing the capabilities of juggernaut so that a tank could alternate HoR and Juggernaut to survive even ridiculous onslaughts.

[extrapayah]

again, please consider using character's level as a part of calculation for any fixed value, please.

i think it is not okay for a skill to have increased mana comsumption each level, without gaining more effectiveness

thank you

[Pedgon]

With all the armor boost and whatnot, aimed shot will only be hitting 500-1k on critical hits. I would suggest if they are going to raise the HP return, then raise it to 3.5% and 50% chance to heal. Anything more is really pushing the capabilities of juggernaut so that a tank could alternate HoR and Juggernaut to survive even ridiculous onslaughts.

Yup, but I really think cooldown should be reduced..it's extremely long =/

[Carapace]

again, please consider using character's level as a part of calculation for any fixed value, please.

i think it is not okay for a skill to have increased mana comsumption each level, without gaining more effectiveness

thank you

It is, but it's indirectly referenced. The amount of armor you can acquire is scaled based on level, so in effect it is just not in an obvious way. This seems more complicated at first, however it provides many options moving forward on itemization in regards to the skill.

[hioo]

Make duration of juggernaut longer or decrease CD time. I'm glad to see warriors are being heard though.

[Oezheasate]

Make duration of juggernaut longer or decrease CD time. I'm glad to see warriors are being heard though.

Cooldown time is a big turnoff tbh

[extrapayah]

Vengeful Blood is the skill which provides mana as a return, and we don't want to double dip the abilities.

we should stick to strictly not create redundantly similar abilities IF we have access to all of the skills simultaneously... but with the strict rules you're trying to force players by giving only 4 active slots, and locking skills on cooldown, i don't think having one of the skill upgrade has similar aspect is a problem

It is, but it's indirectly referenced. The amount of armor you can acquire is scaled based on level, so in effect it is just not in an obvious way. This seems more complicated at first, however it provides many options moving forward on itemization in regards to the skill.

this indirect reference is way too heavily depended on gears... which i don't think a good idea. i prefer something like +50 as initial value + 5x char level + 10-15% of armor, which will make warrior's gear preferences vary greatly. variety is always good

[Pedgon]

Hey everyone,

I was busy toiling away on some other things but I'm digging through the input here and have some additional thoughts based on feedback I've read thus far.

The weakness of the skill was not as apparent as it was once the points were being made, as well as shortcomings in some of the upgrades for the skill. So with that in mind here is a new range of implementation changes to the skill for further discussion:

First, a higher scale rate for the armor. 17.5% for uncharged, and 25% for charged. This is for legendary level gear, the final entry at the bottom being Arcane/Mythics. This is again without pets and without gems.
Attachment 143804

This has a notable improvement compared to the previous iteration, but not too much. The reason why is because of the potential modifications to these upgrades.

Ignore Pain
Currently this provides 20% Damage Reduction as a tap, and 30% as a charged. This would be changed to 40% Damage Reduction on a tap, and 65% Damage Reduction on a charge. This would last the entire duration.

- Combining this with the health boost from scaling armor above results in substantially more effective health for the duration of the effect

Second Wind
Currently this has a 50% chance when below 25% health to heal for an amount based on damage and strength coefficients. The proposed change here is to remove the minimum health requirement so that it has a chance to proc regardless of current health value. The amount healed would also become a fixed percentage. Likely in the 2.5% max health range and at a reduced 33% chance to proc.

- We acknowledge that in its current form 25% minimum health is too low given the power of DPS classes. This upgrade, combined with the revised 'Ignore Pain' and changed scaling for health benefit could prove to make the Warrior a formidable foe during the up time for this ability against skills like Aimed Shot and Lightning, as well as dangerous Elite bosses and content.

Unstoppable
In addition to removing rooting and snaring effects, Unstoppable would also increase your armor by 20% of your STR. This would apply before the Health bonus is calculated to increase your health bonus.

- By utilizing another primary stat of the Warrior, it should provide additional discussions related to things like Jewels and gear combinations to best benefit a warrior utilizing this skill in PvP and PvE circumstances.

Great discussion here, thanks all.

I've been thinking about "Second Wind" upgrade proposal, and I realized it CANNOT be like this! This upgrade it's what makes tanks alive for 15 sec (if jugger does not get broken), but, with this ridiculous HP regain (only 2.5%) and a lower chance to proc it, we will die for sure very quickly; doubling damage reduction percentage won't change anything if HP regain does not compensate damage taken, even if damage reduction was 75-80%, for example. On a PvP clash, for example, even with multiple hits, damage will still be higher than HP regain; and on 1x1, particularly vs rogue, juggernaut will not keep us alive for more than 6-8 sec for sure, and this if we "jugger" with high HP (60-70% at least), coz with low HP it will be a really fast death!

And here comes another problem..most of times tanks use juggernaut when we have less than 50% HP, sometimes we use it with very low HP (5-15%), and these "big" heals (sometimes 2500-3000 damaged HP with 1 hit - that's around 30% HP) when below 25% is what keep us alive; but with this new proposal for HP regain process, that will never happen again!! It will ruin the "meaning" of this upgrade on juggernaut; actually, it will ruin entire juggernaut skill purpose.

Even with 10% HP regain with 50% chance to proc, this problem mentioned above would still be happening, and that is a serious issue when "tanking"!

So, why not keep the current "Second Wind" as it is? Since the damage reduction and HP/armor boost will be much bigger, I don't think the constant "jugger broken" will be a problem anymore! Or even keep it same, with a slight change on minimum health requirement, instead of healing when below 25%, why not 30-35%? This, combined with the other changes you propose, will finally make juggernaut skill what is HAS to be!

And, please, take in consideration, the BIZARRE cooldown of 45 sec and a necessary change to 30-35 sec! (It will still be the longest cooldown in entire game!!)

Thank you!

[geeman75]

I want to say thank you for giving us warriors some love for a change.
Ok I've been following this thread for a while. I say why can't we address the 800 pound gorilla in the room? I work my tail off to get new mythic set and my stats droped including armor. Since I'm a tank it hurts to see that.
I know this is a thread on jug, but armor keeps getting talked about so thought it fitting to add...

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[Skvll]

Vengeful Blood is the skill which provides mana as a return, and we don't want to double dip the abilities.

why can't you just combined both skills into one skill? And let us play with more than one attack skill? Veng and jugg combined and then have a attack skill set up like skyward smash and chest splitter and horn of renew. I think end game and other zones would have a chance against Rogs cause it seems that tanks have to have 5 skills and rotate between each one to survive in PvE and pvp. Just give classes a five skill slot then.

[Oezheasate]

why can't you just combined both skills into one skill? And let us play with more than one attack skill? Veng and jugg combined and then have a attack skill set up like skyward smash and chest splitter and horn of renew. I think end game and other zones would have a chance against Rogs cause it seems that tanks have to have 5 skills and rotate between each one to survive in PvE and pvp. Just give classes a five skill slot then.

Nononono it will benefit rogues and mages much more bugger off

[noisy]

All the proposed changes by carapace should be made except the change to second wind.

[Serillia]

How about you create a test server and we test things out there? You can have people making toons at various levels and experimenting with the proposed changes made to juggernaut in PvE and PvP. Carapace's post showed alot of consideration given to the inputs here while trying to balance the effect the skill has on class balance. But I see what Pedgon is trying to say at least from the PvP standpoint. The current version of the Seoncd Wind upgrade is what makes a tank able to stand 1v5 and take a pounding while the rest of his team regroups and catches up to him. Reducing the proc chance and amount of HP heal would impair this ability at least theoretically- unless we have a protected area and time in which to test this out and see if the proposed changes are viable. The talk is all well and good and people can all nod their heads here to the proposed changes but until we experience it first hand noone will know if its truly good or bad, and if you just throw all these changes into the game without proper player testing and it doesn't work out you'll have a painful time trying to rectify it while enduring the ire of countless dissatisfied tank players.

Hai Friend-Saf!

[Zeus]

I want to say thank you for giving us warriors some love for a change.
Ok I've been following this thread for a while. I say why can't we address the 800 pound gorilla in the room? I work my tail off to get new mythic set and my stats droped including armor. Since I'm a tank it hurts to see that.
I know this is a thread on jug, but armor keeps getting talked about so thought it fitting to add...

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Warriors get the best deal on mythic set and unlike the other classes mythic set of warrior is OP in PvP.