Feedback: YAPT! (Yet another Pisces thread)

To those that claim we abandoned Pisces, that's simply not true. I actively worked with the community attempting to either improve or debug the issues and received ZERO feedback after the debugging went in. In fact, the thread (here) has had no responses in 10 days.

I've run test after test, simulation after simulation and I cannot get the misfire numbers various users have claimed. I'm always able to get it on average 1/3 of the time.

At any rate, I spent some time on it and settled with the following:

• After 5 unsuccessful charges, the proc fires, guaranteed. <-- NEW
• Lowered proc cooldown time from 15s to 12s. <-- NEW

Everything else about Pisces stays the same (proc chance, what it does, etc.)

Additionally, since the DEBUGGING proc cooldown icons were considered helpful, I added real proc cooldown icons for all slot types (amulet, armor, belt, helmet, and weapon) so you know if your attempt to proc is blocked due to cooldown.

None of this has been released, still testing and gathering feedback.

Help me help you.

-ALS

What about Hyperos?

Probably the most useless weapon in the game right now.

It doesn't even tickle bosses. It's such a bad weapon that I have no words to describe it...

Could u include the same thing you did to Pisces with this weapon?

Also, please increase its duration or the damage output. It barely tickles bosses.

You could Proc Aquaris (Procs almost instantly always) and hit boss with Gun attacks, and it'll do as much (if not more) damage than Hyperos proc will (hard to proc)

Pretty sure Hyperos was supposed to be the premier boss destroying mythic for Mages, and it's failing really badly.

Also, if you have Smug Gun, there arent almost any situation in which you'd use Hyperos.

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Originally Posted by asommers

To those that claim we abandoned Pisces, that's simply not true. I actively worked with the community attempting to either improve or debug the issues and received ZERO feedback after the debugging went in. In fact, the thread (here) has had no responses in 10 days.

I've run test after test, simulation after simulation and I cannot get the misfire numbers various users have claimed. I'm always able to get it on average 1/3 of the time.

At any rate, I spent some time on it and settled with the following:

• After 5 unsuccessful charges, the proc fires, guaranteed. <-- NEW
• Lowered proc cooldown time from 15s to 12s. <-- NEW

Everything else about Pisces stays the same (proc chance, what it does, etc.)

Additionally, since the DEBUGGING proc cooldown icons were considered helpful, I added real proc cooldown icons for all slot types (amulet, armor, belt, helmet, and weapon) so you know if your attempt to proc is blocked due to cooldown.

None of this has been released, still testing and gathering feedback.

Help me help you.

-ALS

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thanks asommers for this, I didn't provide feedback because the cooldown was working fine. The problem is sometimes it takes 10+ charges to proc it.
Finally I can sleep in peace.

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Originally Posted by tailwarrior

thanks asommers for this, I didn't provide feedback because the cooldown was working fine. The problem is sometimes it takes 10+ charges to proc it.
Finally I can sleep in peace.

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Rest in peace
Eh

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Originally Posted by asommers

To those that claim we abandoned Pisces, that's simply not true. I actively worked with the community attempting to either improve or debug the issues and received ZERO feedback after the debugging went in. In fact, the thread (here) has had no responses in 10 days.

I've run test after test, simulation after simulation and I cannot get the misfire numbers various users have claimed. I'm always able to get it on average 1/3 of the time.

At any rate, I spent some time on it and settled with the following:

• After 5 unsuccessful charges, the proc fires, guaranteed. <-- NEW
• Lowered proc cooldown time from 15s to 12s. <-- NEW

Everything else about Pisces stays the same (proc chance, what it does, etc.)

Additionally, since the DEBUGGING proc cooldown icons were considered helpful, I added real proc cooldown icons for all slot types (amulet, armor, belt, helmet, and weapon) so you know if your attempt to proc is blocked due to cooldown.

None of this has been released, still testing and gathering feedback.

Help me help you.

-ALS

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Too rng oriented. Especially on maps that require demanding procs basically on command. Evg, Gauntlet and Temple for example required responsive action at start of waves, otherwise you die.

Rogs were praying for mercy that the outcome wouldn't be 8 tries this time or 12 tries before procing the weapon as once in a while that could happen, and it would cost the entire run to fail. Too many rogs were frustrated from losing an attempt in Evg/Temple as the limiting factor of Pisces is rng.

This applies to Hyperos, Polaris aswell. Hyperos basically is never used. Its just as bad as Pisces, except the proc is weaker and requires to hit the same target twice to apply (which is often hard to do with mobs around the boss).

If you plan to buff Pisces, do the same for Hyperos.

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where can i find the proc cooldown icons?


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The previous thread hasnt had any responses in 10 days cos obviously dragkin temple event is over. The daggers with such kind of proc are mostly valued for their potential in wave maps with strong mob clear and high dmg reduction stats. With that being said when u have a "competitive" event with such rewards and u have to start praying before every run for them to proc consistently so u dont waste 1.5 hrs of ur life for no reason...yea theres a problem there.

@Asommers
First thing we appreciate you listening to the community.
Good changes overall

As I said before, yes this weapon is indeed procs 1/3 times in most times, I would say it does not do so in 1/10 times
try run EVG / Temple with Pisces, you will see that in averege 1/10 rounds you will have hard time to proc, where it gets to these long streches.
But 5 charged attack gurarenteed proc is fair and I believe we are able to survive around that time, even against powerfull mobs, with a good strategy its doable.
Thank you for the change, can't wait to try

At this point a buff or reduced cooldown timer would help still. and thanks for adding back the cd timer on hud it really helps. But I would prefer the guaranteed proc on 5th charged attack.

I would also like to add move the elixir timer on "ad elixir" offers (idk what to call it) it was inspired from this thread https://www.spacetimestudios.com/sho...-apply-feature to lessen the amount of timers/buffs on character hud.

TIA

Edit: if you mean you'll apply both you mentioned which is the reduced cd and proc on 5th attack then I will probably enjoy playing as a rogue again. Thanks!

lowered cd time and proc cd icons would be really helpful, thank you

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Originally Posted by Ilove_Poopoo

Too rng oriented. Especially on maps that require demanding procs basically on command. Evg, Gauntlet and Temple for example required responsive action at start of waves, otherwise you die.

Rogs were praying for mercy that the outcome wouldn't be 8 tries this time or 12 tries before procing the weapon as once in a while that could happen, and it would cost the entire run to fail. Too many rogs were frustrated from losing an attempt in Evg/Temple as the limiting factor of Pisces is rng.

This applies to Hyperos, Polaris aswell. Hyperos basically is never used. Its just as bad as Pisces, except the proc is weaker and requires to hit the same target twice to apply (which is often hard to do with mobs around the boss).

If you plan to buff Pisces, do the same for Hyperos.

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true hyperos needs charging to open it's proc, so it should be buffed the same.
while neptaris and polaris just need basic attk to open proc so it's easier with high haste.so no need for it atm.

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Im glad that the cooldown icons are back, its really useful in general but I still don't understand why we are still stuck with charge to proc when other classes have more advantageous methods of proccing :/
notice how hyperios is also hated? hmm I wonder why.
Pls give us proc on normal attacks or something less disruptive than having to charge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by asommers

To those that claim we abandoned Pisces, that's simply not true. I actively worked with the community attempting to either improve or debug the issues and received ZERO feedback after the debugging went in. In fact, the thread (here) has had no responses in 10 days.

I've run test after test, simulation after simulation and I cannot get the misfire numbers various users have claimed. I'm always able to get it on average 1/3 of the time.

At any rate, I spent some time on it and settled with the following:

• After 5 unsuccessful charges, the proc fires, guaranteed. <-- NEW
• Lowered proc cooldown time from 15s to 12s. <-- NEW

Everything else about Pisces stays the same (proc chance, what it does, etc.)

Additionally, since the DEBUGGING proc cooldown icons were considered helpful, I added real proc cooldown icons for all slot types (amulet, armor, belt, helmet, and weapon) so you know if your attempt to proc is blocked due to cooldown.

None of this has been released, still testing and gathering feedback.

Help me help you.

-ALS

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The thread you mentioned did receive plenty of feedback whether or not there was any additional responses in 10 days. The temple event is also not up and running which was the reason that particular thread was created. Regardless, there have been many instances in which the daggers have not proced in over 5 charges. These new changes would be very helpful and appreciated.


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My entire goal is to figure out why Pisces "is broken". Unfortunately, requiring charge to proc Pisces will not change. Sure, it's not going to proc exactly when you want, Pisces is "35% chance to proc on charged hit". That's how the weapon was designed and that's how it will work. Cinco's work on the new 81 Arcane weapons is simplifying the usage and you can give him feedback here.

However, to combat the claim that it takes too long to proc, we're discussing possibly adding guaranteed proc after 5 unsuccessful charges assuming the cooldown isn't blocking you. Oh, one clarification: the proc counter will not start unless the cooldown timer is expired. If you manage to squeeze in 6 charges in 15s during the cooldown, it will then take you 5 more unsuccessful charges to have the guaranteed proc.

Who knows? Instead of adding either the guaranteed proc and/or the cooldown reduction, maybe all that's required is showing the cooldown timer so you know you will not proc .

-ALS

PS. Stop trying to hijack the thread making it about other things. This thread is about Pisces.

What about spirit weapon? I love the weapon, but its really disappointing that it is useless :(


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by asommers

My entire goal is to figure out why Pisces "is broken". Unfortunately, requiring charge to proc Pisces will not change. Sure, it's not going to proc exactly when you want, Pisces is "35% chance to proc on charged hit". That's how the weapon was designed and that's how it will work. Cinco's work on the new 81 Arcane weapons is simplifying the usage and you can give him feedback here.

However, to combat the claim that it takes too long to proc, we're discussing possibly adding guaranteed proc after 5 unsuccessful charges assuming the cooldown isn't blocking you. Oh, one clarification: the proc counter will not start unless the cooldown timer is expired. If you manage to squeeze in 6 charges in 15s during the cooldown, it will then take you 5 more unsuccessful charges to have the guaranteed proc.

Who knows? Instead of adding either the guaranteed proc and/or the cooldown reduction, maybe all that's required is showing the cooldown timer so you know you will not proc .

-ALS

PS. Stop trying to hijack the thread making it about other things. This thread is about Pisces.

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Thanks a lot, 6 charges is way better. I will wait for cooldown and then do another 6 charges. Atleast now we're assured that it proc for sure.



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I have a small doubt. Does haste reduce weapon cooldown timer?
example, say I have weapon with 15s cooldown, with 50% haste will it reduce to 7.5s?

Me on average when i charge attack, i get proc within 3 or 4 charge but i always found annoying the long cd of pisces. By logic, if i proc bow, then to proc daggs i should get a longer cd but in case of pisces is not like this. Especially on rahab, usually i kill rahab with pisces, then mini with bow and very often i insta proc pisces on rahab again. If instead i use pisces all along, After mini it will take me quite a while to proc pisces again. Since is two different weapons, by logic for me the cd between them should be longer than from two procs of same weapon. To really improve the weapon i would apply both changes. And counter cd om hud are very very nice, +1 for this

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@asommers I suggest you to watch these videos, no proc cool downs restricted me from being able to proc. 1 is bad quality because I had to make the file size 8mb to send to someone in discord
https://youtu.be/dkaenB_Ia0M
https://youtu.be/aw7IwfcASKE

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guaranteed on 5 charge basic is a big help for pisces proc thanks for this asommers

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Originally Posted by asommers

[*] After 5 unsuccessful charges, the proc fires, guaranteed. <-- NEW

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This will help for sure, ty

For shameless mages complaining in this thread about weapons, are u all ok? lol, why you all don't mention that hyperos and aquaris procs can be stacked after some update ;) while rogues can't even use hasteless marianos

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Originally Posted by Encryptions

@asommers I suggest you to watch these videos, no proc cool downs restricted me from being able to proc. 1 is bad quality because I had to make the file size 8mb to send to someone in discord
https://youtu.be/dkaenB_Ia0M
https://youtu.be/aw7IwfcASKE

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we all faced this problem - our life & score is in the hands of RNG

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Originally Posted by Synergia

we all faced this problem - our life & score is in the hands of RNG

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Yeah if it wasn't rng I say wave 125~ would be soloable on rog.

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+1000000000
Tysm @asommers

At this point it is urgent that the rogues have a better Ultimate or that the warriors nerf their ultimate, it is not just about the rogue weapons, to kill 1 boss the class does not work unlike other classes

Quote:

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Originally Posted by asommers

At any rate, I spent some time on it and settled with the following:
[LIST][*] After 5 unsuccessful charges, the proc fires, guaranteed. <-- NEW


-ALS

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nice dude, this should resolve all issues. i think. lol

What about the "enemies dodge"?
I don't know if it has something to do with the Pisces charge issue and her proc.
But in war there are times, that the Polaris doesn't work because of this issue, when the proc comes out, you charge several times, about 3 max you can in the duration of the proc, and then you fail all because of the "enemy's dodge".
It also misses normal attacks very often, due to the same problem with "dodge" whereby your proc doesn't activate.
There are also maps that work correctly, then you go into a kind of "dodge" streak, all attacks fail because of the "dodge".
I think there is something about the "dodge" that interferes with the proc of those weapons.
All this, tested and speaking of Zodias maps, which is where the weapons should work perfectly.
The rest of the maps don't really matter because these weapons aren't that necessary.

Ok but why is it so hard to make them proc on every successful charge? Taking the cooldown time into consideration as well of course. What's the point of procs like these where you have to keep on charging and praying it'll proc, duggar daggers are so much better proc wise than the pisces. All I'm asking for is a reason why we can't have a 100% proc chance on a successful charge?

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Originally Posted by Vrazicak

Ok but why is it so hard to make them proc on every successful charge? Taking the cooldown time into consideration as well of course. What's the point of procs like these where you have to keep on charging and praying it'll proc, duggar daggers are so much better proc wise than the pisces. All I'm asking for is a reason why we can't have a 100% proc chance on a successful charge?

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if it was given a 100% chance on a single charge, then it won't be called a proc but a skill.

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So a skull axe proc is a skill? Interesting approach buddy.

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Originally Posted by tailwarrior

if it was given a 100% chance on a single charge, then it won't be called a proc but a skill.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vrazicak

So a skull axe proc is a skill? Interesting approach buddy.

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Anything wrong to have another 'skill' instead proc? would be perfect imo, even if it would become nerfed

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Originally Posted by Vrazicak

So a skull axe proc is a skill? Interesting approach buddy.

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It is because it would be too powerful for mythic quality items. Also(as alot of people knew since mythic came out) the new arcanes(half of them) will use 100% proc chance on charged attack.


On topic: I used these frustrating daggers for about 8 months after release and got tired of it. Glad to see you are finally going to do something about it. 1 year later is better than not at all i guess(except for the players that were forced to use these things if they wanted to play rog end game.)

Actually the main difference between skull(aquaris,duggar too) and pisces is it's chances to proc the weapon. Skull is more close to a skill since we can proc it 90% of the time with axe. The thing is the randomness of the pisces proc. The randomness is like getting a mythic loot from pet rescue boss consecutively or sometimes we never loot a mythic( just an example not true but more or less similar, didn't take labyrinth as a comparison since it's on another level torture).

If all class weapons had the same randomness of the pisces proc, then it is well and good. Everyone would've started a crying thread(well mages did for hyperos recently, I relate to them) instead of rouge only. We're so accustomed to having a higher chance to proc a weapon that when we compare that to pisces, it's too frustrating. If aquaris had a charged proc, just imagine what will happen.

Anyways I will talk a bit about new 81 arcane too. There is a boss damage weapon which proc 100% if charged but with a high cd. In my opinion, it's basically a skill without a new button.
Next is a mob clearing weapon, which will unlock it's 'proc' when we kill x amount of mobs. Sounds very similar to ultimate(we kill mobs to 'charge' ultimate skill). It's basically a ultimate without a button.[emoji1]

I actually support for a weapon to behave as a skill or ultimate. Feel free to share your thoughts.




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The guaranteed proc after 5 unsuccessful charge attempts for Pisces has been implemented and will be in the next server (content) update. Also included are the proc cooldown icons for all slot types (amulet, armor, belt, helmet, and weapon).

After internal discussion, we decided against the cooldown change (15s -> 12s).

-ALS

@assommers Big W with the Pisces. After 5 charge is guaranteed proc. I like this BIG W[emoji108][emoji91][emoji91]


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why cd change is not? i can see warior and mage killing melting boss life solo after a 2-3 seconds but they are not contented and they want more buffs, but rogue charge to proc cannot kill just like they do to boss, less 3 sec cd to pisces proc is a big help not to die and kill mobs because mob killing is a rogues job.

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Originally Posted by snakeeyes

why cd change is not? i can see warior and mage killing melting boss life solo after a 2-3 seconds but they are not contented and they want more buffs, but rogue charge to proc cannot kill just like they do to boss, less 3 sec cd to pisces proc is a big help not to die and kill mobs because mob killing is a rogues job.

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We didn't want to change too many things at once. We'll let these two changes (guaranteed proc and proc cooldown icons) bake for a while and reevaluate.

-ALS

Quote:

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Originally Posted by asommers

We didn't want to change too many things at once. We'll let these two changes (guaranteed proc and proc cooldown icons) bake for a while and reevaluate.

-ALS

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@Asommers
Will this weapon still be relevant? since many people assume arcane weapons are coming this week, altough we are certain that 99% of the player base will not have access to them in the first month of release, we would like to know if the meta for the upcoming months will still be pisces (for rogue)

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Originally Posted by Synergia

@Asommers
Will this weapon still be relevant? since many people assume arcane weapons are coming this week, altough we are certain that 99% of the player base will not have access to them in the first month of release, we would like to know if the meta for the upcoming months will still be pisces (for rogue)

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If they decide to keep the "Kill x mobs for proc" then pisces maybe helpful on procing then switching to arcane and killing mobs though mages can clear everything with aquaris.