After One Year, Enough is Enough

[phillyr]

Yea, so the biggest damaging skill adds the missing 10% on the single target along with armor reduction and added crit which is all factored in before the damage to the target is factored in correct?

just another upbeat positive comment from your friendly neighborhood forumer 😆

[MoloToha]

Rogue shouldn't receive any damage nerf in PvP, they just need to have their enormous crit multipliers fixed. Damage nerfing is bad, it's just a quick fix that is applied until better solution is found (like fixing crit mjultipliers). Ideally, if crit multipliers are fixed, rogue's aimed and pierce crit should be even lower than lightning crit (which crit multiplier is correct).

[Zeus]

Yea, so the biggest damaging skill adds the missing 10% on the single target along with armor reduction and added crit which is all factored in before the damage to the target is factored in correct?

just another upbeat positive comment from your friendly neighborhood forumer ��

No, it does not. If the 10% nerf + the pet damage nerf did not exist, the aimed would hit much higher. So, it does not add the missing 10% damage. If we weren't nerfed, we'd hit even harder.

[Zeus]

Rogue shouldn't receive any damage nerf in PvP, they just need to have their enormous crit multipliers fixed. Damage nerfing is bad, it's just a quick fix that is applied until better solution is found (like fixing crit mjultipliers). Ideally, if crit multipliers are fixed, rogue's aimed and pierce crit should be even lower than lightning crit (which crit multiplier is correct).

Err...what? So sorcerers would have stun, aimed shot (essentially), and AOE/DoT? The critical multiplier is working correctly. The entire reason why Aimed Shot hits so hard is because of the 10% damage upgrade + 15% armor reducing upgrade. Try using Aimed Shot without the 10% damage upgrade and you should notice that the aimed shot hits around the same as a lightning critical hit.

The thing is, first the 10% damage upgrade is calculated because logically, it did hit first. After that, the 250x multiplier is applied which is why Aimed Shot always hits harder on the second shot. If the 250x multiplier is the only one in effect, then the first hit is not nearly as bad as the rest.

The only thing wrong with Aimed Shot is:

- Armor reduction is applied before the damage calculation on the intial hit making Aimed Shot stronger than it should be for the initial hit and initial hit only. However, the second hit is normal and intended.

[phillyr]

No, it does not. If the 10% nerf + the pet damage nerf did not exist, the aimed would hit much higher. So, it does not add the missing 10% damage. If we weren't nerfed, we'd hit even harder.

Didnt u say what I just said in your last post? U just explained why...but thats exactly what I was saying.

The problem I see isnt dmg that rogues have, its the dmg that aimed shot does. And to be fair if all mages attack skills are nerffed (stun immunity=fb nerf, no skill roots, ice doesnt freeze) why isnt aimed shot nerffed? Those skills mages have would make them near immortal in pvp, AS is making rogues near godly killing machines. Thats the only skill destroying all 3 classes. And with the shortest cooldown of any class on top of that.

just another upbeat positive comment from your friendly neighborhood forumer 😆

[Zeus]

No, what you are saying is that the damage boost from aimed shot renders the nerf on rogues useless.

It does not. In fact, the current buff systems in place reduce damage by 1000-2000damage depending on pet choice.

So, if they granted back the damage nerfs and pet percent buffs - rogues would be doing 1-2k more damage.

Aimed Shot is supposed to do a lot of damage, just like lightning. The only thing that's different is that sorcerer's crit less and lightning does not have the armor reduction or damage boost upgrade. However, that does not stop lightning from cutting 2.8-3k.

Our overall damage is nerfed & that should be enough.

Stun immunity mechanics are not working as they should be which is why you do not see a sorcerer stunning other than the initial hit.

The solution is not nerfing rogues because then we are back at stage 1, where rogues were an entirely useless class. The solution is to pick out the flaws of each class and fix them.

Playing the blame game does not fix the obvious flaws in game mechanics. It does not fix the flaws in class mechanics either.

Stun immunity should be reduced. Stun immunity rules need a revision because right now, every skill or auto attack will reset immunity timer.

Sorcerer's need a way to avoid stuns by incorporating stun immunity in the shield & perhaps grant the shield a percent armor boost (20-30%).


Of course, there's also the other issue of user flaws in utilizing a class & the gear difference.

[Killfreeak]

We all know 99% of the time it isnt clash, so truely, class balance should be that all classes are capable of handling themselves even without a team to support them. I do think mages need some sort of stun immunity, however an equally geared mage can usually beat a mage. Mage does take a little more skill and timing in order to beat a rogue though. Rogues just start with stun, drop packs, aimed, packs, combo. Gg. But if you are equally geared to the rogue and they arent using razor usually they are easy enough

[phillyr]

No, what you are saying is that the damage boost from aimed shot renders the nerf on rogues useless.

It does not. In fact, the current buff systems in place reduce damage by 1000-2000damage depending on pet choice.

So, if they granted back the damage nerfs and pet percent buffs - rogues would be doing 1-2k more damage.

Aimed Shot is supposed to do a lot of damage, just like lightning. The only thing that's different is that sorcerer's crit less and lightning does not have the armor reduction or damage boost upgrade. However, that does not stop lightning from cutting 2.8-3k.

Our overall damage is nerfed & that should be enough.

Stun immunity mechanics are not working as they should be which is why you do not see a sorcerer stunning other than the initial hit.

The solution is not nerfing rogues because then we are back at stage 1, where rogues were an entirely useless class. The solution is to pick out the flaws of each class and fix them.

Playing the blame game does not fix the obvious flaws in game mechanics. It does not fix the flaws in class mechanics either.

Stun immunity should be reduced. Stun immunity rules need a revision because right now, every skill or auto attack will reset immunity timer.

Sorcerer's need a way to avoid stuns by incorporating stun immunity in the shield & perhaps grant the shield a percent armor boost (20-30%).


Of course, there's also the other issue of user flaws in utilizing a class & the gear difference.

I dunno why u got in this back and forth with me. I never asked for a damage nerf on rogues or said mage cannot in anyway shape or form beat a rougue. Nor did I state the nerf hasnt helped tanks survive just a bit longer in pvp.

U lost 10% in a pvp nerf correct? U gain 10% when u use aim shot correct? Ok. What I was saying earlier was the way mages are built makes us great at running pve. But also makes us op at pvp. Same with rogue. All the factors that make aimed shot a fantastic skill in pve also make your class seriously op in pvp. Ours were nerffed to take away all the unfair advantages of our class.

With the insane base damage of the classes with these new mythics( and for some the new ring) without having proper armor values to defend against them, that skill is an unfair advantage in pvp. Just as the mages skills would be if they werent nerffed.

just another upbeat positive comment from your friendly neighborhood forumer 😆

[Zeus]

Hello Phillyr,

To clarify:

- Rogues face a 10% loss of damage when entering PvP
- Rogues also face a loss of their damage buffs from pets when entering PvP

In total, this can amount to up to a 25% loss in damage. That is quite a substantial amount and actually really helps keep the balance.


Now, let us talk about class balance:

A rogue versus a warrior is pretty balanced. Either can beat the other. So, this shows to reason that there's nothing wrong with a rogue's aimed shot other than what I previously mentioned. Developers specifically incorporated aimed shot because prior to this, rogues were a useless class.

So, since a rogue versus a warrior is balanced, the only logical thing left to do is give sorcerers a buff in the ways that I suggested. It simply does not make sense to nerf a rogue's skills when balance already exists between two classes. I play all 3 classes so please trust me when I am trying to balance all three classes collectively.


Thank you for your thoughts and opinions,

Zeus

[Niixed]

All this shows is that more people use rogues to dummy farm. Everyone knows the pvp leaderboards are 80% dummy farmers. Rogues can move faster to their dummies by using shadow pierce, so this makes total sense. This has nothing to do with real pvp.

It has a lot to do with real pvp. I am very well aware of that many, if not most, of these kills are merely dummy farmed, but these are the only numbers we have to go on. "Everyone knows," but what can be proven? Not much. If STS based their decisions on these numbers then the dummy farmers would have ended up hurting all rogues who pvp.

I think STS should disable both PvP leaderboards until they have a way to weed out the farmers. I would suggest adding a kills/deaths frequency monitoring system. Then, reset the leaderboards (+ seasonally!!) and let the real pros shine through.

[Niixed]

Hello Phillyr,

To clarify:

- Rogues face a 10% loss of damage when entering PvP
- Rogues also face a loss of their damage buffs from pets when entering PvP

In total, this can amount to up to a 25% loss in damage. That is quite a substantial amount and actually really helps keep the balance.


Now, let us talk about class balance:

A rogue versus a warrior is pretty balanced. Either can beat the other. So, this shows to reason that there's nothing wrong with a rogue's aimed shot other than what I previously mentioned. Developers specifically incorporated aimed shot because prior to this, rogues were a useless class.

So, since a rogue versus a warrior is balanced, the only logical thing left to do is give sorcerers a buff in the ways that I suggested. It simply does not make sense to nerf a rogue's skills when balance already exists between two classes. I play all 3 classes so please trust me when I am trying to balance all three classes collectively.


Thank you for your thoughts and opinions,

Zeus

After careful consideration my suggestion to correct the imbalance is to remodel Arcane Shield:

1) Lower cooldown to 25 sec
2) Replace Displacement Wave upgrade with projectile reflection that reflects 15% of incoming projectile damage. That would include aimed shot, storm, nox, bows, ice bolt, guns, thrown axe and anything similar.
3) Ensure shield mechanics are operating correctly
4) Review/tweak absorbable damage formula

This helps mages in both pve and pvp. PvE deaths are probably also too high for mages. Developers don't have to do anything special for pvp.

[Zeus]

The curse on shield is a nice play, I like it!

However, it favors a mage to do traditional damage reflect instead of what you suggested. A 2.5k critical hit is still roughly only 300 damage reflected which is a meager amount.

Perhaps...allow damage reflect on shield the way curse works but also include stun immunity, reduce cool down of shield & increased damage absorption amount of shield.

Note: I took out the increased armor of shield because it would negate the damage reflect.


Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus using Tapatalk

[Niixed]

The curse on shield is a nice play, I like it!

However, it favors a mage to do traditional damage reflect instead of what you suggested. A 2.5k critical hit is still roughly only 300 damage reflected which is a meager amount.

Perhaps...allow damage reflect on shield the way curse works but also include stun immunity, reduce cool down of shield & increased damage absorption amount of shield.

Note: I took out the increased armor of shield because it would negate the damage reflect.


Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus using Tapatalk

I suppose it is a form of curse, but I grabbed the idea from the alpha wolf reflective shield. I did say reflect projectile damage only, but I think you're right because it is less messy to just reflect all. Devs could just copy/paste alpha wolf shield code onto mage shield with a few modifications.

At first I thought 25% reflect, but I try to think like a STS developer. Knowing the pattern of their previous decisions regarding damage, 25% seemed too high. 15% sounded more like something Sam's team might swallow, especially if you add mage curse on top of the shield reflection damage. A 2.5k crit hit would reflect 375 damage. 20% is 500. 25% is 625. It's hard to know what the best amount would be, but I'd be willing to push for 20%

Arcane Shield Buff Proposal:

• Add 5 second stun immunity to Arcane Shield (+2.5 sec stun immunity with Extended Shield upgrade)
• Increase total damage absorbable by 10%
• Reduce cooldown from 30 to 25 sec
• Replace Displacement Wave with Reflective Shield (on charged)
  
  • Reflects 20% Of Incoming Damage

Thoughts?