Comprehensive: Why bears have the short-end of the character stick -- Long read.

[Ellyidol]

Just want to point out how bears have the short-end of the stick. My opinions and observations from different levels of PvP and PvE. Whether you agree or disagree, this is what I think.

I'll try to start from a general perspective proceeding to a more detailed perspective.

PS: This is going to be quite a "tl:dr" descriptive explanation, so pardon me, only goes to show how strongly I feel about it.

The Real tl;dr

After much lengthy discussion and debate on this topic throughout the post, the OP only contains exaggerated suggestions. There have been more suitable suggestions throughout the thread. So before you keyboard smash after (if) reading the OP, read the thread

Not really a tl;dr huh.


How do bears have the short-end of the stick?

To keep things simple and uniform, I will assume that non-bear builds will be pure. Birds pure dex, mages pure int.

The proposed allocation of stat points for each class is,

Bear = Str
Bird = Dex
Mage = Int

I also think that the "best" of each class (bird/mage) are the pures. A pure dex bird can do what it does best, damage and kill. A pure int mage can do what it does best, support and nuke.

A pure str bear cannot do what it does best, tank.

Just on stats alone, bears already have the shorter-end of the stick by needing to have hybrid stats, at minimum. A pure str bear will never, never out-perform a str/dex bear in tanking, damaging, or debuffing. The only thing it can do better than a hybrid is outlast it if both stand still and just receive a pounding, which is non-existent in this game other than the occasional lag spike.

Tanking in this game, if not every game, is not just about standing still to take damage. It is about keeping your team alive through taking damage, in other words, aggro and control.

Our only aggro skill (Taunt) is already controversial. There is no official way to tell how it works. How long does it take aggro? How strongly does it take aggro? Does each level increase, increase the amount of aggro gained? More importantly, it can miss. This only reinforces the need for a bear to have dex, to have Hit %.

Control. Tanking isn't only doable through aggro, but control, more specifically, mob control/crowd control. We have Beckon, Stomp, and arguably Hell Scream. Again, reinforcing the dex/Hit % issue.

Do note, that aggro and control only fully apply to PvE. Aggro doesn't work in PvP, and control isn't as effective in PvP. The stat problem isn't as pronounced in PvE compared to PvP. PvE has potions, allowing the use of gear with Hit %, Dodge % and Armour instead of regen. PvP has no potions.


PvP

PvP is very different. The stat or dex/Hit % problem stated earlier is more pronounced and has a bigger impact here. Before I get into Hit % and its issues, I'll talk about a general perspective first.

Again, assumption that no hybrids and no dual specs. Pure dex birds, pure int mages, and melee bears.

Melee vs Range. That alone, understandable, melee always has the disadvantage against range. Common sense, no arguments there.

My argument is on the fighting chance of melee bears from range.

What is the longest ranged skill of a bear? Beckon, 12m. Hell Scream, 8m. Stomp, 8m. Slashes, 4m. Crushing Blow, 3m.

What do we go up against? Other than the 12/10m skills, 2 roots, 1 pushback shot, 1 12m freeze, 1 6m freeze and 1 fire pushback.

Against ONE Root/Freeze, we have Stomp to break-free with. Extensive discussion on this issue is here : http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?31093-Suggestion-Bear-skill-to-break-out-of-freeze-root.

---

After our already initial disadvantage of range is our equally significant disadvantage in Hit %.

Bears have the lowest Hit %. Pure dex birds, self-explanatory. Pure int mages, if I'm not mistaken and from evidence of Wallace's thread of "How to spec your mage", mages don't have a problem on Hit % either. Even without any Hit % gear, I believe both pure dex birds and pure int mages still get a close to 100% hit rate, please correct me here.

My personal 56 bear has 96-98% Hit, depending on the ring used.

129/155 Str/Dex.
Royal Helm
Rooter's Sword
Royal Plate
Bellow Shield

If I remove the added dex and the Rooter's Sword, I lose 31% Hit. That drops it down to 65-67% Hit rate. I'm already having trouble connecting all my skills consecutively with 96-98 Hit, let alone with 65-67.

If skills don't hit, birds and mages can normally attack and kite, bears can try to chase and die.

---

Bears rely on odds too much.

'Rely on odds', bears in majority rely on two things to perform in PvP (similar to birds/mages too),

Kill = Crit %
Live = Dodge %

Armour is important, but less significant due to the amount of Crit % that end-game birds/mages get. Leaving the best survival stat to be Dodge, to avoid the damage taken instead of reducing it.

No crit buff, no dodge buff, close to useless bear unless standing right next to target -- Hit issue and range issue. In my opinion, this is a general experience though. Shows how excessively potent buffs are, but that's another discussion.

---

Damage. I've always thought and understood that being melee equates having the highest potential damage output.

It makes sense, have a distance disadvantage but have better damage IF you do get near.

Why bother playing a class if you can't get near, and if you do, can't out-damage?

If I'm not mistaken, pure dex birds are better off with bows and pure int mages are better off with staves, bears are in majority better off with a sword+shield. Consequently, birds and mages have the damage of 2H weapons, bears have 1H weapons.

Which leads me to my next observation.

2H str weapons. Royal Sewer Battle Hammer, very disappointing. I still stand by my opinion that the Gurgox Hammer is still the best 2H str weapon in the game. Also the most understandable. It's a 2H str weapon, it has huge damage, which is supposed to be the case.

---

These problems are inter-related.

The sequence is Range - Hit % - Odds - Damage.

To combat range, we have Beckon. Assuming Beckon connects, our Hit % issue arises. Assuming our debuff/combat skills connect, for debuffs it stops here, for combat skills the odds/damage issue arises. Does it crit? Does it do enough damage?

Or

To combat range, we have Beckon. Assume Beckon doesn't connect. We either chase him down both having the same move speed - DotA/HoN/LoL type players know how move speed and chasing is related - and the gap never closes, or we decide to run the opposite direction and suffer having to deal with the roots/freezes/12m skills that we are now in range of.

Or

To combat range, Beckon. Beckon connects, but we get pushed back/rooted/frozen. We Stomp to break free, and we can either chase or run away, same situation as earlier. Or we don't Stomp, we wait til the root/freeze is over while taking damage the entire time.

For those that have experienced this, I'm sure you can relate. For those that haven't, I'm hoping it's understandable.

Like I said, the problems are inter-related. Bears deal from one problem to the next, while birds/mages have easier options.

---

These problems are more noticeable as you progress to end-game. I played at 15 PvP (though this doesn't really count, all classes don't have all their skills yet), 25 PvP, 35 PvP, then jumped to end-game PvP, and played with two mindsets,

1. I am not looking for said problems, everything was balanced.

2. I am looking for the problems, putting myself in the said situations to find a way out.

In a nutshell, I could not help but think of the four problems no matter what mindset I was in. I'll try to take photos on situations that showcase the problems, such as important skills being on cooldown (Beckon, Stomp) but being frozen/rooted in place with nothing to do but stand there.

---

Suggestions

1. Re-work bear skills. Development of new ones to replace existing ones.

Aggro - Give Taunt a 100% success rate, a fixed amount of time aggro'd, and an uninterruptile Taunted/Aggro'd status.

Charge - Give us a chance to get near and not rely on Beckon alone. Let us Charge in. Replace Crippling Slash, the most "useless" slash.

Damage - Improve skill damage. That's all we have. We currently need to use a 1H Sword + Shield, so normal attacks are almost non-significant. Alternatively, you can boost up 1H weapon damage, or actually provide good end-game 2H weapons.

Break-Free - Change it from Stomp to Hell Scream. Stomp is our only combo finisher yet is our only ticket out to the countless roots/freezes that we have to face, yet only have one Stomp to combat it with. It kills two birds with one stone if we use Stomp. Break free but no combo, or stay rooted for the chance of a combo. Either way, we lose one thing. Birds don't lose anything with their break-free skill, neither do mages with heal.

2. Okay, don't improve bear damage, just make us real tanks. Not a "tank" that relies on dodge to live, neither a "tank" that has to kite to survive. A real tank that's meant to dive in and get down and dirty in the front lines.

---

I hope my observations make sense. There has been great discussion on such issues in these threads,

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?24007-Suggestion-A-Change-In-Warriors!

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?31016-Bear-in-PVP-are-under-powered

Do note, I'm not asking for bears to have a one-shot skill/combo neither for an invulnerability skill. I'm not asking for bears to be over-powered or birds/mages to be nerfed.

I'm pointing out the disadvantages that bears face with the hopes of being put to par with birds and mages. Let us compete and not be a burden. Asset and not a liability. Have a primary, instead of a secondary, purpose.

Pardon my lengthy post, like I said earlier, it only shows how strongly I feel towards this issue.

And no, playing a bird or mage is not an option for me. It's not that they aren't good, in fact, the entire thread pretty much points out how good they are against bears at least. I don't plan on backing out or avoiding these problems by simply switching to another toon. You don't get better if you use the easy way out.

Thanks.

[Tamino]

Premise 1: I agree on all your points, they are based on real facts.
Premise 2: I don't play PVP, I just started to do something with a 25 mage and my experience on the topic is almost nothing.
Premise 3: I have three mains (Lev 56 bird, elf and dual STR/DEX bear), used only in PVE.

Given that, in my experience the most easy and relaxing toon to be played is the bear. It was difficult to set-up, it required experiments, dual-spec added a layer of complexity, but nevertheless it can be played without stress and compensating PUGs inefficiencies. The same isn't true for mages (good survivability and low cost, but at price of running forth and back reviving and healing) and neither for birds (expensive a lot and suffering from bad PUGs). Sometimes I clear the way to arrive to Bank Vault with the bear, then I switch to bird for completing the daily quest (consuming 10-15 pots, 0 with bear).

I cannot say why, and mostly it can be pure coincidence, but at least in PVE bears are THE BEST. It could be better? Sure, you explained how. But (a few PVP points apart) this will lead to a bigger unbalance toward bears. IMHO, of course !

[Ellyidol]

I see where you're coming from

Have personally experienced the mage running back and forth situation, definitely tiresome.

As for the bird, it could be debatable too, IMO. I'd like to think that for my bird-buddies, that a good bear drastically reduces their potion consumption. Mana consumption would most probably stay the same, if not more. However for health, a good bear should probably keep the use to a minimum, moreover if a good mage keeps healing up.

And yes, bears are good in PvE, my favorite between the 3 classes by a long shot Arguably though, I think how good a character, be it bear/bird/mage, would be is up to the player controlling the character and how he favors the class. I'm sure the bird/mage masters also think their bird/mage as best for them

I also see what you mean by changing stuff for PvP affecting PvE. Very true. To be honest, I'll be very satisfied if they gave us at least the Charge aspect. I don't think it would affect PvE that much, if not, make the bear more useful in terms of staying ahead of the group. Its impact on PvP, however, would be tremendous!

[Conradin]

Yes- Bears have been wimpy since the Great Bear Nerf. I think your right, the best way to fix bears is thier skills. Not only would charge (im guessing a speed ruhs, or teleport to target) let us get closer in pvp, but would help us tank at the front of the pack. and agreed taunt is weak- it needs to be better at getting aggro. Our skills could be a lilttle stronger- mainly the slashes.


as for pvp- i can take birds and mages usually only on corners or behind trees (55 pvp) Maybe after 35 the slash could become charge. This might help equal lower lvl pvp..

[drewcapu]

I've been very stubborn about my bear and have kept it pure str in hopes that it'll get tweaked some day. And yes, I don't mind looking silly wearing two pieces of Mystery

There was something I vaguely remember (pretty sure) Fluffy said long ago about 2H's being bugged in a way. I don't remember the details. But it is pretty disappointing that none of the BS 2H Pinks are ever worth equipping.

I still like the idea of a charge skill. It may make bears actually want to wear their vyx helms

[Register]

Lol I guess my bird fails...dual spec xD

[Lesrider]

Yep, I usually choose warriors first in any game, as they're the easiest to play and great for the first run-through. So I chose bear first, naturally. But I felt so useless compared to the birds and mages that I quickly made a bird and Mage. This is the ONLY game I have ever preferred a Mage over a warrior. The only time bears had any use was in the early ao3 days, when mages were extra squishy and bears were absolutely necessary. That was the only time I played my bear. Gave up on him right after the nerf.

I hope SL makes warriors/commandos more fun to play.

[nazgulking]

I agree with Elly. I have a Bear and a Paladin and like them both (bear for crowd control abilities, paladin for beign able to auto-heal, making pot consumption equal to 0). Unfortunately my bear without hit% boosting gear is very depressing, since my beacon can interact with 2 out of 6 baddies at a given time, diminishing my crowd control role in the team. I've read somewhere on this forum a STS dev saying that PL class needs a rework and I hope they will do it

[Barrington]

I've been very stubborn about my bear and have kept it pure str in hopes that it'll get tweaked some day. And yes, I don't mind looking silly wearing two pieces of Mystery

There was something I vaguely remember (pretty sure) Fluffy said long ago about 2H's being bugged in a way. I don't remember the details. But it is pretty disappointing that none of the BS 2H Pinks are ever worth equipping.

I still like the idea of a charge skill. It may make bears actually want to wear their vyx helms

or jacobs helm - look like a tazor

[Ellyidol]

as for pvp- i can take birds and mages usually only on corners or behind trees (55 pvp) Maybe after 35 the slash could become charge. This might help equal lower lvl pvp..

That actually raises a really good point and issue too.

We have the sequence of problems of Range - Hit - Odds - Damage, yet our "killing move", therefore fighting chance, actually promotes this issue.

We Beckon - (insert whatever skills here for build up, CB/SMS/HS) - Stomp and we have a combo. But, unless we wall pin or tree pin, which I admit is not always possible in PvP, especially some maps, this combo pushes them quite far away putting you back in square one.

But you're right, mages/birds are easier if they are tree/wall pinned. I find it funny if all bears start wall/tree hugging during fights though. Lol.

I've been very stubborn about my bear and have kept it pure str in hopes that it'll get tweaked some day. And yes, I don't mind looking silly wearing two pieces of Mystery

There was something I vaguely remember (pretty sure) Fluffy said long ago about 2H's being bugged in a way. I don't remember the details. But it is pretty disappointing that none of the BS 2H Pinks are ever worth equipping.

I still like the idea of a charge skill. It may make bears actually want to wear their vyx helms

Lol drew, I'm stubborn in the sense that I will never give my bird/mage a chance to replace my bear too

I actually don't mind having to wear cheap or non-premium gear, the best set-up for a bear through BS gear is quite cheap anyway, premium gear for a bear is second in 2H weapons for disappointment. But, I can only see it getting worse from here. Next update, will we still need to wear 55 gear while birds/mages wear the 60 gear already?

I actually came across a bear yesterday, mystery/AO3 gear set up, performed quite well giving that he must have been below 55.

Lol I guess my bird fails...dual spec xD

Doesn't fail I just use and prefer pure builds here to uncomplicate things, too tedious having to deal with all sorts of hybrids when pointing out issues.

I, of all people, should know how dual specs are good

Yep, I usually choose warriors first in any game, as they're the easiest to play and great for the first run-through. So I chose bear first, naturally. But I felt so useless compared to the birds and mages that I quickly made a bird and Mage. This is the ONLY game I have ever preferred a Mage over a warrior. The only time bears had any use was in the early ao3 days, when mages were extra squishy and bears were absolutely necessary. That was the only time I played my bear. Gave up on him right after the nerf.

I hope SL makes warriors/commandos more fun to play.

Same path here. In my opinion, warriors are supposed to be the easiest class to play, where player skill is easy to pick up and the general play style is straightforward. Definitey different here, in terms of tanking and PvP. Quite interesting beingna warrior yet having the need to kite your ranged opponent. Lol.

I agree with Elly. I have a Bear and a Paladin and like them both (bear for crowd control abilities, paladin for beign able to auto-heal, making pot consumption equal to 0). Unfortunately my bear without hit% boosting gear is very depressing, since my beacon can interact with 2 out of 6 baddies at a given time, diminishing my crowd control role in the team. I've read somewhere on this forum a STS dev saying that PL class needs a rework and I hope they will do it

I had a pally back in the AO3 days too. I have to admit, I actually found it a better tank than my bear. Although the crowd control is little to none, pallies actually don't have to worry about dying at all. Like you said, they don't even need to use pots. Lol.

I hope so too. Looking back, I can't begin to imagine the case now if they didn't do that stat rebalance for the game. I'm extremely grateful for that, as it also gave more headroom, but it seems that it has been filled up again after one campaign. Another issue that would call for another thread though

[Fyrce]

Charge (speed up for bear) would be pretty nice. I can keep my bear up front by anticipating killing shots and moving onward as the kill is happening. BUT this meant dual-specing my bear so he could use ranged weapons.

I thought like drew. I did not dual spec until recently. I stuck w/ almost all str (some dex for hit%) until I realized I was playing my bear less and less and enjoying him not as much. And I really love my bear. I really love that bears lead and head the team, etc. But his damage was low and he couldn't run ahead because he has to be melee range from his previous kill, which puts him behind the birds and mages.

I decided my bear needed a ranged weapon in order to start heading toward the next kill area while also still hitting. In addition, as he's approaching the enemy, he can start getting aggro, as birds and mages rarely wait on their ranged weapons for the bear.

I love my bear again! Though I accidentally max-leveled him (it was pretty easy ), so now I play my mage more (which still needs a little 70k xp). My bear still has some damage issues but at least he's now leading again.

But he had to get a ranged weapon in order to lead...

which is a bit strange for a warrior... which is supposedly melee.

We need bear-love!

[Johnaudi]

You have letten the bear owns again...

[Swimmingstar]

Well there is a really good bear but he is dual spec I usually on my mage kill all the dex bears but this guy is really good he can kill me str and dex

[Kalielle]

I agree with Elly. I think the main problem is that the aggro is often all over the place in PL, and bears don't really have any good abilities to keep it. I remember from the days when Frozen Nightmares was hard at level 45 before the rebalance, and from the days of the pre-nerf yellow aliens when AO3 just came out, that as a mage I had no way of not getting some random aggro and getting one-shotted. I played with some of the best tanks out there, and I was really, really careful to not attack before they did, and to target the one guy out of the mob that they were targeting with their weapon - and still I'd get aggro. Playing a pure int mage - especially a staff mage - was not an option.

So then the one-shotting problem was solved with the rebalance, by making all mobs weaker and giving players a lot more health so that they could cope with the random aggro. I think that was a good move but it still didn't solve the aggro problem, and it made all dungeons quite a bit less challenging. And there's no way to have more challenging dungeons with the current class structure until bears can hold aggro better - the early AO3 days showed that. The bears' weakness as tanks is limiting the possible difficulty of the game as a whole.

Another option would be to decide that PL was the kind of game where no class is the single designated aggro-holder, like Spiral Knights. Already it's getting close to that - birds and mages often run ahead and have no trouble tanking, especially in easier maps. But in that case bears should get a boost to damage, because otherwise they'd be useless since they're not needed as tanks. (Of course then they should also get a decrease in armor so they're on par with everyone else.)

I'd much prefer the first option - having bears as true tanks, not just as dps with a beckon ability for crowd control. It's not particularly interesting to play dungeons where everyone is just running along with no particular person tanking. Class roles make this game a lot more fun. If the aggro issue could be fixed, bears could then be buffed in armor and health and everyone else could be weakened, and we could have challenging dungeons again.

[Ellyidol]

Charge (speed up for bear) would be pretty nice. I can keep my bear up front by anticipating killing shots and moving onward as the kill is happening. BUT this meant dual-specing my bear so he could use ranged weapons.

I thought like drew. I did not dual spec until recently. I stuck w/ almost all str (some dex for hit%) until I realized I was playing my bear less and less and enjoying him not as much. And I really love my bear. I really love that bears lead and head the team, etc. But his damage was low and he couldn't run ahead because he has to be melee range from his previous kill, which puts him behind the birds and mages.

I decided my bear needed a ranged weapon in order to start heading toward the next kill area while also still hitting. In addition, as he's approaching the enemy, he can start getting aggro, as birds and mages rarely wait on their ranged weapons for the bear.

I love my bear again! Though I accidentally max-leveled him (it was pretty easy ), so now I play my mage more (which still needs a little 70k xp). My bear still has some damage issues but at least he's now leading again.

But he had to get a ranged weapon in order to lead...

which is a bit strange for a warrior... which is supposedly melee.

We need bear-love!

You're right in that we tend to fall behind, it only makes sense too with how easy the dungeons are now. If I lead, I don't even bother finishing off the mobs anymore before I move on to the next area, just something I've grown to accept in BS.

Spot on, it's weird how you have more fun as a dex bear than a melee bear. Though personal preference pushes me to be melee bear in PvP, I've also grown to learn using it for PvE.

I have absolutely nothing against dual spec-ing or hybrids, again of all people, how could I disapprove of these builds? Lol

You have letten the bear owns again...

Nope, I'm not asking for bears to own or to dominate or to be superior. If they do make changes, and they will probably need testing and iteration, it will be quite easy to see how overpowered the changes are.

I don't want bears overpowered either, where's the fun in that?

We have to remember, that the OP bear was pre-GCD. Ever since GCD was implemented, the entire game has changed. I'll admit, I tried the multi-touching capabilities before, and a bear was heavily favored.

Well there is a really good bear but he is dual spec I usually on my mage kill all the dex bears but this guy is really good he can kill me str and dex

There are heaps of awesome bears out there, unfortunately some don't use the forums or are as transparent as I wish to be. But put an equally skilled bear versus an equally skilled mage/bird, and I can almost guarantee only luck factoring in wins for the bear.

I agree with Elly. I think the main problem is that the aggro is often all over the place in PL, and bears don't really have any good abilities to keep it. I remember from the days when Frozen Nightmares was hard at level 45 before the rebalance, and from the days of the pre-nerf yellow aliens when AO3 just came out, that as a mage I had no way of not getting some random aggro and getting one-shotted. I played with some of the best tanks out there, and I was really, really careful to not attack before they did, and to target the one guy out of the mob that they were targeting with their weapon - and still I'd get aggro. Playing a pure int mage - especially a staff mage - was not an option.

So then the one-shotting problem was solved with the rebalance, by making all mobs weaker and giving players a lot more health so that they could cope with the random aggro. I think that was a good move but it still didn't solve the aggro problem, and it made all dungeons quite a bit less challenging. And there's no way to have more challenging dungeons with the current class structure until bears can hold aggro better - the early AO3 days showed that. The bears' weakness as tanks is limiting the possible difficulty of the game as a whole.

Another option would be to decide that PL was the kind of game where no class is the single designated aggro-holder, like Spiral Knights. Already it's getting close to that - birds and mages often run ahead and have no trouble tanking, especially in easier maps. But in that case bears should get a boost to damage, because otherwise they'd be useless since they're not needed as tanks. (Of course then they should also get a decrease in armor so they're on par with everyone else.)

I'd much prefer the first option - having bears as true tanks, not just as dps with a beckon ability for crowd control. It's not particularly interesting to play dungeons where everyone is just running along with no particular person tanking. Class roles make this game a lot more fun. If the aggro issue could be fixed, bears could then be buffed in armor and health and everyone else could be weakened, and we could have challenging dungeons again.

I remember! Those days, a bear was essential to run through maps with those yellow guys.

I agree too, that if PL is actually a non-role type game, this wouldn't be an issue. For that to happen though, they'd need to restructure their whole game concept. I remember reading about PL a lot before actually playing, and reading about it even more when I was playing, and the underlying role of a warrior has always been tank. I also didn't expect that hybrids (dual specs, hybrid stats) would actually be at par with the pure builds and that the game would revolve around pure builds and player skill differentiating them.

[Roasty]

My full rift bird works fine with me!

And this is a VERY impressive thread!

[Ellyidol]

My full rift bird works fine with me!

And this is a VERY impressive thread!

Haha, thannk you

And I didn't say they suck, I just think that in fulfilling their class roles, pures are better.

iDPS = Dex Bird
iNuke = Int Mage
iTank = Well, you know

[Fyrce]

I was pretty sad the day I went ahead and dual-spec'ed my bear. It took me a long time to think it over: About hit %, getting aggro early, moving ahead of the group.

It was unfortunate I had to decide that for a bear to stay in front and start aggro properly, he has to obtain range in his attack, to get in front of the ranged attacks of the rest of the group.

As a bird/mage I always wait for the bear to choose his enemies, assuming I have a leading bear, before I do damage, but many players do not do this. They start in on their ranged attacks, sometimes before they are even in range. It seems to work better for a leading bear to be able to start some of his own attacks early and to be able to start moving away to the next section before the group is finished.

And really a lot of the fun of playing a bear is leading.

[Ellyidol]

It was unfortunate I had to decide that for a bear to stay in front and start aggro properly, he has to obtain range in his attack, to get in front of the ranged attacks of the rest of the group.

As a bird/mage I always wait for the bear to choose his enemies, assuming I have a leading bear, before I do damage, but many players do not do this. They start in on their ranged attacks, sometimes before they are even in range. It seems to work better for a leading bear to be able to start some of his own attacks early and to be able to start moving away to the next section before the group is finished.

Although this is purely PvE, it makes a lot of sense too. It would also further justify a need for some sort of Charge skill.

Beckon is nice, no doubt. Best skill for a bear, IMO. But that is bringing opponents closer to you (or team). Even if the bear is now in range of the mobs, the problem is still there, you can't fully lead in front because you will be travelling at the same speed of your group.

If we had Charge, we would be able to finally truly lead the group by pushing ahead instead of pulling the mobs towards us.

[Moogerfooger]

I read all 13 words

Now, where did you get that Charge idea from? O.o