PVP Updates: We're going live! PART 3

[Ireliaa]

I'm positive it will be enough. You shouldn't be using razor at the same time as Nekro anyways.

how much exact DR nekro offers i do not know, but it feels close to %25, i may be wrong
if you cant survive mage rush with nekro shield how can you with %25 DR

[Zeus]

100 armor offers like %2.5 damage reduction, its like getting %2.5 healt, so 150-200 hp extra gonna solve it?

Yep, that's not going to solve it. 25% will, and that's half of what warriors and sorcerers get. So, it should be fair. If it doesn't work, I'll eat my words. However, I'm nearly positive that it will.

[soon]

Exactly, I'm not asking for a lot and I believe I'm being reasonable. I am just asking to be able to survive if a support class rushes me as soon as Nekro drops.

We must remember that class balance should never depends on pets. As it currently is, a rogue's balance in PvP heavily depends on Nekro shield. That's why when we see the Nekro shield drop, so does rogues. Sorcerers and warriors do not have this problem because they have defensive measure of their own, each of varying amounts. I'm not asking to be immortal, I'm just asking to have some time to survive when Nekro shield fades.

I hope a developer sees this and understands that it's a very reasonable request.


Thank you!



If you can survive the Mage rush, then it's okay. I can manage. Rogue just needs to be able to survive till the next Nekro shield (6 seconds). Once that happens, they have a place in clash and everything is okay. Team heals are not enough for a rogue to last these 6 seconds. That's why the damage reduction is needed.

Damage reduction would be useful for PVE as well.

[yubaraj]

Just revert back to what it was before global Nerf thing happened.

Nerf rogue damage by 10% in PvP but give them back armor.

I am pretty sure rogues will cry more.

[intrepd]

well you suvive but you do much less of a damage which may lead you to not able to kill aswell, besides u sure %25 gonna be enough? it wont stack with nekro also its 8 sec
you gotta try it before claiming i guess, DR vs doing less dmg

but no need to argue this is just stun immunity jokish buff

Rogues only need 25% damage reduction in razors but make it to not be stackable with Nekro shield and such, its just to survive without nekro since a rogue without nekro is just food for 3 mages, Rogues are going to replace nox with razors and 25% is nothing compared to 55% plus rogues are going to lose damage as well from losing nox so it should be fine no?

[Zeus]

how much exact DR nekro offers i do not know, but it feels close to %25, i may be wrong
if you cant survive mage rush with nekro shield how can you with %25 DR

Nekro offers 40% damage reduction. I'm able to survive Mage rush with Nekro shield. As long as tank covers and sorcerer covers, I can easily survive the rush while Nekro shield is up. What I cannot survive though is as soon as Nekro shield drops and rogues have no protection. Even if tanks and sorcerers are covering with heals, I as a rogue, will not survive. Adding extra HP does not help with this - I've tried HP builds.

That's why I say damage reduction will help. It will help insure that a rogue does not get one combo'd as soon as Nekro drops. As I said, class balance shouldn't rely on a pet. Currently, rogue heavily relies on Nekro to do anything in PvP. Other classes can use pets like Korruption and SnS, but a rogue cannot use anything but Nekro.

50% DR for razor is an overdose, but 25% will be enough to help you survive. Now, are you going to be able to brush off the rush? No, it'll still hurt like hell. But, if you're smart and think quickly, that 25% DR will help you live through it, to the next heal and get the Nekro shield.

[Ireliaa]

Ofc, I would take 100 armor or 150-200 hp any day, but think about it. With mm stats, daggers, and best armor, you can get 2.45k armor, 1.3k damage, 6k hp and 50% crit. No Mage could kill a rogue with 6k hp 2.4k armor

no single mage i agree, problem is with cluster of mages

[intrepd]

how much exact DR nekro offers i do not know, but it feels close to %25, i may be wrong
if you cant survive mage rush with nekro shield how can you with %25 DR

I believe I heard nekro was 40% and it's not this way, mages rush once nekro shield is down, rogues need to sync this 25% with nekro to survive and it's not 100% guarantee chance to survive anyways lol.
Sorry ik this question was not to me but tried to help out giving info

[Breakingbadxx]

Doesn't relying on a skill like razor shield in the first place backfire on the glass "cannon" concept?

2 of 4 skill slots are used up for non-"cannon" skills on a "glass cannon"

Where does the "cannon" come in play in this?

On another note, i'm still trying hard to understand how this "buff" increases rogue survivability exactly. Just curious.

[Ireliaa]

Nekro offers 40% damage reduction. I'm able to survive Mage rush with Nekro shield. As long as tank covers and sorcerer covers, I can easily survive the rush while Nekro shield is up. What I cannot survive though is as soon as Nekro shield drops and rogues have no protection. Even if tanks and sorcerers are covering with heals, I as a rogue, will not survive. Adding extra HP does not help with this - I've tried HP builds.

That's why I say damage reduction will help. It will help insure that a rogue does not get one combo'd as soon as Nekro drops. As I said, class balance shouldn't rely on a pet. Currently, rogue heavily relies on Nekro to do anything in PvP. Other classes can use pets like Korruption and SnS, but a rogue cannot use anything but Nekro.

50% DR for razor is an overdose, but 25% will be enough to help you survive. Now, are you going to be able to brush off the rush? No, it'll still hurt like hell. But, if you're smart and think quickly, that 25% DR will help you live through it, to the next heal and get the Nekro shield.

well in random tdm's mage team pretty much flattens rogue team in my experience, when they are grouped and similar gear to you thats what i was trying to tell, on your case equal team with mix, yea you can survive

about the coverage you are right its painful to wait AA cooldown and only thing you can do is hide until you get the nekro shield up.

[Ireliaa]

Rogues only need 25% damage reduction in razors but make it to not be stackable with Nekro shield and such, its just to survive without nekro since a rogue without nekro is just food for 3 mages, Rogues are going to replace nox with razors and 25% is nothing compared to 55% plus rogues are going to lose damage as well from losing nox so it should be fine no?

i agree it provides some coverage between AA's and its pretty usefull about not being food. Its just the damage loss concerned me, i never changed 4 pvp skills from 31 cap i personally cant foresee the effect of losing your one damage skill

well to see, we need to get the DR first hear us vroom:P

[extrapayah]

imo, any skill and upgrades should have additional/improved effect whenever we charge it. if the game is moving toward mindless tapping game, people will indirectly encouraged to use makro/auto-tapping/auto-clicker

i think you should add some improved effect to charged one, either in damage reduction, dot protection, or reduce the effectiveness of non-charged one, and keep the charged one as it is

[Safiras]

Doesn't relying on a skill like razor shield in the first place backfire on the glass "cannon" concept?

2 of 4 skill slots are used up for non-"cannon" skills on a "glass cannon"

Where does the "cannon" come in play in this?

On another note, i'm still trying hard to understand how this "buff" increases rogue survivability exactly. Just curious.

The idea is that you offer the rogue flexibility in deciding how much "glass" and how much "cannon" they want to be.

Why do you want all rogues to play the same way and be equally squishy?

With razor shield you drop one offensive skill (usually noxious bolt) for one defensive skill. Means you become less cannon and less glass. It's a theoretically decent trade-off. People give noxious bolt less credit than it deserves. I've killed a number of people with nox poison many times, and it's useful as a second ranged attack when you need to keep your distance. So here is a significant damage handicap taken by the rogue when she swaps to razor shield. Problem is that currently, apart from stun immunity, damage reduction is too little to make up for the loss in damage capability. So less cannon, but not much less glass.

I would like to give the suggestion by Zeus a try. Take away KDR during testing I don't think any rogue will mind. I don't know if other classes will be as accepting of this though.

[sevenpain]

Sorry not trying to be rude but is this suppose to be a change? Most pvpers know that this upgrade ignores stun i believe

I'm still curious about ur ign

[intrepd]

I'm still curious about ur ign

Sorry i don't like to give my IGN.

[Energizeric]

Interesting discussion....

I cringe whenever an improvement to a certain skill is proposed and everyone posts "well nobody uses that skill anyway so it doesn't help...."

That itself is a sign that the discussed skill needs improvement. There should be a full variety of skill combinations that top players use. If most of the top players are all using the same build, then that indicates some balance issues among the various skills.

What annoys me about this particular discussion is that when given the opportunity to improve survivability at the expense of damage, rogues always complain that they don't like it. What Zeus is proposing sounds very reasonable. If you want better survivability, then you should have to be willing to substitute an offensive skill for a defensive skill. It appears the issue at hand here is that the rogue's defensive skill is inferior. If that is the case, then it needs to be improved to make it worthwhile to use.

As a Mage, I have 2 of my 4 skill slots using defensive/support skills (shield and heal). There is no reason a rogue cannot do that same thing. Even with only 2 offensive skills, a rogue is still going to cause much more damage than a sorcerer since the rogue's skill cool down is 2 seconds compared to 3-4 seconds for a Mage.

[Zeus]

Interesting discussion....

I cringe whenever an improvement to a certain skill is proposed and everyone posts "well nobody uses that skill anyway so it doesn't help...."

That itself is a sign that the discussed skill needs improvement. There should be a full variety of skill combinations that top players use. If most of the top players are all using the same build, then that indicates some balance issues among the various skills.

What annoys me about this particular discussion is that when given the opportunity to improve survivability at the expense of damage, rogues always complain that they don't like it. What Zeus is proposing sounds very reasonable. If you want better survivability, then you should have to be willing to substitute an offensive skill for a defensive skill. It appears the issue at hand here is that the rogue's defensive skill is inferior. If that is the case, then it needs to be improved to make it worthwhile to use.

As a Mage, I have 2 of my 4 skill slots using defensive/support skills (shield and heal). There is no reason a rogue cannot do that same thing. Even with only 2 offensive skills, a rogue is still going to cause much more damage than a sorcerer since the rogue's skill cool down is 2 seconds compared to 3-4 seconds for a Mage.

I agree, that a rogue will still do more damage than a sorcerer when comparing two skill builds. However, since the sorcerer heal is so powerful, it pretty much outheals the damage. That's why, I'm glad you agree with me, about the survivability buff. It's not too much. If you're still not careful, you will die as 25% is not a huge difference.

[DAmage126]

no single mage i agree, problem is with cluster of mages

they aren't gonna buff it so that rogues can deal with a cluster of mages lmao you want 200% damage reduction?

[intrepd]

they aren't gonna buff it so that rogues can deal with a cluster of mages lmao you want 200% damage reduction?

please show 1 post were someone asked for 200% reduction here, all i see is 25% which is not even alot but enough for a smart rogue to survive

[Breakingbadxx]

The idea is that you offer the rogue flexibility in deciding how much "glass" and how much "cannon" they want to be.

Why do you want all rogues to play the same way and be equally squishy?

With razor shield you drop one offensive skill (usually noxious bolt) for one defensive skill. Means you become less cannon and less glass. It's a theoretically decent trade-off. People give noxious bolt less credit than it deserves. I've killed a number of people with nox poison many times, and it's useful as a second ranged attack when you need to keep your distance. So here is a significant damage handicap taken by the rogue when she swaps to razor shield. Problem is that currently, apart from stun immunity, damage reduction is too little to make up for the loss in damage capability. So less cannon, but not much less glass.

I would like to give the suggestion by Zeus a try. Take away KDR during testing I don't think any rogue will mind. I don't know if other classes will be as accepting of this though.

If you believe this 'decent tradeoff' makes rogues less 'squishy' then go ahead and enjoy your "buff".