Its time we Balance | Evolution of weapons

[arcanefid]

The intent of the OP is very simple: it asks why isn't the proportion maintained every-time the damage for a class is buffed? And it shows that the damage and armor difference between classes is increasing to grow exponentially.

I am not sure why are people trying to read between the lines and if they are reading the OP at all.

The way I see it, it is wrong because you are comparing items that have procs. An item with a better proc is OK to have worse stats than one with a bad proc. That IS balance. It's the name of the thread. Edit: You can't really say Flame Hammer is better than Flame Staff, even if the hammer has 5X more damage.

Basically, to have more accurate results for those graphs and to make a better comparison between weapons, items, and classes in general, you have to include data for each tier of the items, or at least from Legendary to Arcane, but you must also consider the procs that each weapon has, because if you just ignore the most important part of the thing you're investigating, then everything you come up with is pointless.

[PsychoNuke]

The way I see it, it is wrong because you are comparing items that have procs. An item with a better proc is OK to have worse stats than one with a bad proc. That IS balance. It's the name of the thread. Edit: You can't really say Flame Hammer is better than Flame Staff, even if the hammer has 5X more damage.

Basically, to have more accurate results for those graphs and to make a better comparison between weapons, items, and classes in general, you have to include data for each tier of the items, or at least from Legendary to Arcane, but you must also consider the procs that each weapon has, because if you just ignore the most important part of the thing you're investigating, then everything you come up with is pointless.

You can get the same curve and trends for legendary weapons as well, they have no procs. I would really appreciate if players have that concern then they should have a look at the stats of legendary weapons, both dps and armor. I think Warfare type Legendary will give info on both DPS and Armor and they are available level 41+ on all level caps.
Trust me I wanted to do it for Legendary, Mythics and Arcanes and I did spend quite a long time looking for all the weapons for all caps but I failed. When I compared the available material for each rarity I realized that Mystics are like 5% above Legendary and Arcanes are around 10% above Mythics, so graphs almost showed same curves. So I decided to do it on Mythics because they were in middle and I had screenshots of most Mythics.

This is from the time I was looking into Legendary, unfortunately I only have it for armor at present, Legendary (Warfare type)

Level Mage Rogue Warrior

Level 41 42 42 224
Level 51 51 174 246
Level 61 61 354 434
Level 71 70 411 504

Attachment 173571

I will try to get one for damage as well, till I can, I would appreciate if players check it themselves. Ty.

[arcanefid]

You can get the same curve and trends for legendary weapons as well, they have no procs. I would really appreciate if players have that concern then they should have a look at the stats of legendary weapons, both dps and armor. I think Warfare type Legendary will give info on both DPS and Armor and they are available level 41+ on all level caps.
Trust me I wanted to do it for Legendary, Mythics and Arcanes and I did spend quite a long time looking for all the weapons for all caps but I failed. When I compared the available material for each rarity I realized that Mystics are like 5% above Legendary and Arcanes are around 10% above Mythics, so graphs almost showed same curves. So I decided to do it on Mythics because they were in middle and I had screenshots of most Mythics.

This is from the time I was looking into Legendary, unfortunately I only have it for armor at present, Legendary (Warfare type)

Level Mage Rogue Warrior

Level 41 42 42 224
Level 51 51 174 246
Level 61 61 354 434
Level 71 70 411 504

Attachment 173571

I will try to get one for damage as well, till I can, I would appreciate if players check it themselves. Ty.

That is better, but still, I know many Legendary weapons which have procs. I can start counting the warrior ones: Dark Watch Sword, Magmatic Claymore, Galen's Maul, Dusk Sword, Planar Club, etc. I think it's only the more recent legendary weapons which have no procs, but then again, now the new Mythics are just a kind of replacement for what would be Legendary in the older times.

Anyway, I think it would be impossible to really find out in detail what, how, when, why, etc. It takes a lot of time and a lot of money. And the amount of things you have to test to come up with accurate results is just too big. We know though that classes weren't balanced in previous caps, but now they are just fine, or at least much better than what it used to be. As a matter of fact, around the time when the OP shows that Mages were at their absolute worst state, I think it was when everyone was becoming a mage because of Flame Staff? Am I wrong?

[PostNoob]

Dude, you do not want to speak of Procs..dont want to hear it about skill AoE damage, awakens, pets.

You only want to talk about how there is a larger damage gap moving forward on mage weapons. Now if you actually did care about balance, dont you think it would be smart to take every single aspect that could have influence on why there is this gap, and consider it? Your not even considering the very things that make weapons. "Its a variable, it doesnt apply"...yes it does! If has a possibility to influence the overall preformance of a weapon, you have to account for that!

You cant simply disregard key aspects of the game soley because it suits your cause to have mages buffed.thats what your doing, its plain as day.

I just dont see how you create these graphs, take as much time as you did(looks like you put some work into it at least) and not see why it is the way it is. It probably took me literally a minute to understand this, its basic stuff man.

[V i o l e t]

As pointed out, there is no denying that with each cap, the weapons do display an increasing gap between the rogue dmg/armor and the dmg/armor of warrior and mage. I understand that the aim of the thread is not a simplified comparison of stats between the classes but it is about the gap in progression of stats for each class.

Was the spurt in rogue stats necessary? Maybe it was. This point is debatable and viewpoints may differ in the future depending on how big the gap gets and if we really need it. Damage stats alone do not decide damage output, perhaps the spurt in stats was deemed necessary by devs for rogues to work well in current zones.

Whether that gap maintains balance or topples it, depends on how it is working currently and how it would work in the future. For now, as a mage, I am not facing any hardship and would not want a buff for the mage class.

[PsychoNuke]

As pointed out, there is no denying that with each cap, the weapons do display an increasing gap between the rogue dmg/armor and the dmg/armor of warrior and mage. I understand that the aim of the thread is not a simplified comparison of stats between the classes but it is about the gap in progression of stats for each class.

Was the spurt in rogue stats necessary? Maybe it was. This point is debatable and viewpoints may differ in the future depending on how big the gap gets and if we really need it. Damage stats alone do not decide damage output, perhaps the spurt in stats was deemed necessary by devs for rogues to work well in current zones.

Whether that gap maintains balance or topples it, depends on how it is working currently and how it would work in the future. For now, as a mage, I am not facing any hardship and would not want a buff for the mage class.

Thanks Violet, I am happy to see that people are able read and understand the OP.
And from your answer I understand that you are comfortable with the increasing gap of armor and damage because it does not affects you as a mage at present.

^This right here is all I need from this thread, if you are comfortable with it or not, if you are not then tell us what you think right values should be according to you, how much should it be balanced? lower? or higher? etc. And it will be nice if you can add an explanation on why you think it should change or not.

[PsychoNuke]

How do you plan to properly discuss class balance and the evolution of weapons by not considering the weapons and class balance itself?

Skills and weapon procs are literally the most important things that contribute to class balance and the evolution of weapons. Ignoring these two elements completely and asking to discuss class balance doesn't make sense.

I guess this thread is just useless then, because we are not allowed to discuss anything here.

This is the main problem with everyone on this thread (less with you, you are at-least trying to put some ideas and value), trying to merge components and mainly not even reading or understanding the OP properly before commenting. Its not about being allowed (I cannot stop anyone) but more about discussing it right.

None of the comments on this thread actually discussed the OP. You know what OP points out? That the three weapons are not buffed at the right proportion at every cap.
Why there is a gap between damage and armor and should it be reduced or left to be kept increasing. It projects how it will look on next 3 caps if it is not reduced.

Having the same gap on all weapon types (legendary, mythic etc), with or without procs shows that porcs does not affects it.
Skill Damage depends on Stat Damage, so how can skills be the cause? If anything, it adds to the issue that the gap between skill damage for every class is also getting increased every cap.

This thread is to understand what is a "right balance" for damage and armor gap between Rogues, Mages and Warriors to begin with. To understand if the current baseline is correct or if it needs modification, and that happens when people share their inputs. But I think I am expecting too much here, the members on this forum are not suited for it.

Hope you are able to see my stand now. Please tell me if it is hard to understand this out of OP, I would like to know if there are any kind of edits required there. I would be happy to make it more layman friendly, because man I am clueless where does half of the comments on this thread points to. People just see class balance written and start commenting blindly about whatever they feel like, sigh..

As I mentioned before lets take things one at a time. Skills will come into picture, but to have a open discussion on skills on facts we need the data (I am talking about taking baselines of skill damage of all skills of all classes on same stat damage) and I am still figuring out how I will get access to that data, I will sure need help. Right now all we have on this thread are comments with assumptions and speculations, that is just waste of time

Their single target damage is bigger than Warrior's through both Ice and the Thunder one (I don't remember their names). They also do a better job at damaging multiple enemies at once, and also do a better job at slowing down enemies.

"Warriors should not be running alone"

Mages are a support class and yet they can finish any map solo much faster than a Warrior if we don't take into account weapon procs or Pet AAs. If we include procs and AAs, then it's even worse. That statement is just wrong any way you look at it.

I agree, now apply what I said above to your comment, and tell me do you see the issue?
I think this is the part where we finally come to same page.

[arcanefid]

This is the main problem with everyone on this thread (less with you, you are at-least trying to put some ideas and value), trying to merge components and mainly not even reading or understanding the OP properly before commenting. Its not about being allowed (I cannot stop anyone) but more about discussing it right.

None of the comments on this thread actually discussed the OP. You know what OP points out? That the three weapons are not buffed at the right proportion at every cap.
Why there is a gap between damage and armor and should it be reduced or left to be kept increasing. It projects how it will look on next 3 caps if it is not reduced.

Having the same gap on all weapon types (legendary, mythic etc), with or without procs shows that porcs does not affects it.
Skill Damage depends on Stat Damage, so how can skills be the cause? If anything, it adds to the issue that the gap between skill damage for every class is also getting increased every cap.

This thread is to understand what is a "right balance" for damage and armor gap between Rogues, Mages and Warriors to begin with. To understand if the current baseline is correct or if it needs modification, and that happens when people share their inputs. But I think I am expecting too much here, the members on this forum are not suited for it.

Hope you are able to see my stand now. Please tell me if it is hard to understand this out of OP, I would like to know if there are any kind of edits required there. I would be happy to make it more layman friendly, because man I am clueless where does half of the comments on this thread points to. People just see class balance written and start commenting blindly about whatever they feel like, sigh..

As I mentioned before lets take things one at a time. Skills will come into picture, but to have a open discussion on skills on facts we need the data (I am talking about taking baselines of skill damage of all skills of all classes on same stat damage) and I am still figuring out how I will get access to that data, I will sure need help. Right now all we have on this thread are comments with assumptions and speculations, that is just waste of time



I agree, now apply what I said above to your comment, and tell me do you see the issue?
I think this is the part where we finally come to same page.

I never really checked the stats in as much detail as you did in the OP, but I am sure I understand the point of it very well.

You started the discussion with the stats, but I am not sure if that is the correct step to start with. There are some things that I (and many others here) think you should take into account before going to the numbers, such as the roles of the class, and also the skills. I will not mention the procs this time.

If we discuss things in a different order, not starting from the numbers, we might have some findings which explain why the stats are what they are. If the Mages are the support class, then do they really need higher damage and higher armor? You mentioned that tanks shouldn't run alone, in that case we should be able to say that Mages shouldn't be running alone too, and the same for Rogues.

And the skills are still very important if you want to discuss numbers. You simply can't ignore that and go straight to the stats graphs. I understand that Skill damage is based on the stats, but you're not calculating what the skills actually do.


Let's do some extremely simplified calculations just to show what I mean:

A mage with 100 Damage stat
A rogue with 400 Damage stat
A warrior with... 50 Damage stat

If Fireball hits 6 enemies for 100 damage each or even 50 damage each, then one Fireball you cast is doing a total of 600 Damage (or 300 in the case of 50 each). If a Rogue's arrow is doing 400 Damage to one enemy, then a mage is still dealing more (or almost the same in the case of 50) damage even if their damage stats is much smaller. And this is why you can't just go straight to the numbers. I won't take any example for warriors here.

If you still think that no one is understanding the OP, or assume that we are all ignoring what you said, then I think you should definitely re-write it and make it more clear. But I also ask you to carefully read what we are saying, because no one is as off topic as you're saying they are.

Edit: I forgot to mention one other thing, since we're discussing mostly PvE here, then you should know that the three classes work together and not against each other, so my armor is your armor, and your damage is my damage. ;3

Edit 2: I am definitely comfortable with how the stats are progressing now. But I will not be comfortable when warriors become useless again because we won't be getting the TB proc all the time. :P

[PsychoNuke]

@arcanefid: Do me a forever, instead of discussing on hypothetical numbers compare the skill damage for all classes on same base damage stat. You will realize that reality is different than what you are speculating, also, each class have aoe and single target skills, so you should compere aoe skill with aoe, and single target with single target, not any skill with any skill. (I already did some homework on this but I don't have the complete data yet, bit busy)

I understand PVE interdependence but that does not mean your armor is my armor and my damage is your damage, that's only applicable if the game was designed to force party to include 1 of each class every time (like in other MMOs) .
Also I wont label the roles on classes as justification to anything, I mean if warriors are given all that armor because they are only suppose to be Tanks then Taunts are not suppose to be an option, aggro should be by default enabled on them. If Mages are suppose to be only support then they should have Utility skills more than Damage skills, buffs/debuffs for party/enemy, and other attributes like interrupts. But that's not the case for any of those classes, isnt it.

[arcanefid]

@arcanefid: Do me a forever, instead of discussing on hypothetical numbers compare the skill damage for all classes on same base damage stat. You will realize that reality is different than what you are speculating, also, each class have aoe and single target skills, so you should compere aoe skill with aoe, and single target with single target, not any skill with any skill. (I already did some homework on this but I don't have the complete data yet, bit busy)

I understand PVE interdependence but that does not mean your armor is my armor and my damage is your damage, that's only applicable if the game was designed to force party to include 1 of each class every time (like in other MMOs) .
Also I wont label the roles on classes as justification to anything, I mean if warriors are given all that armor because they are only suppose to be Tanks then Taunts are not suppose to be an option, aggro should be by default enabled on them. If Mages are suppose to be only support then they should have Utility skills more than Damage skills, buffs/debuffs for party/enemy, and other attributes like interrupts. But that's not the case for any of those classes, isnt it.

What is the point of this thread exactly?

I don't want to be rude, but you're still ignoring what everyone is saying.

[PsychoNuke]

What is the point of this thread exactly?

I don't want to be rude, but you're still ignoring what everyone is saying.

I didn't ignore, I only said we should not use hypothetical data but actual numbers. Did I miss something?
I explained the motive of this thread on post# 53. But then your reply to that shows that you can only comprehend and add value to the OP if skills are discussed.

So I agreed to discuss it, and I was serious on last comment, I thought you can help on the warrior side, and we might need a rogue to help on that front to evaluate the skills.
Please let me know if you disagree on anything I said on previous comment and why?

[Trader]

I think the current DPS difference between the arcane weapons in the winter preview is fine. But I agree that the gap should not increasing like how it shows in those graphs, its not symmetrical. I think people don't really care about these things anymore because its all about gold loot in pve. It does matter in pvp but nobody plays it anymore.

People will only cry about class balance when there is gold involved, remember what happened in hydra that is the sad truth. People do not even remember anymore that mage get 5% and warrior get 10% damage buff on both raids. If everything is balanced that should not be there, so even devs agree that it is not balanced.
Lastly I think armor for mage should be raised by like 40, I mean that is like 2 excellent jewels.

Thanks for taking the effort to make this thread but sorry I think this thread is going to die like any other rational thing on internet.

[PsychoNuke]

I think the current DPS difference between the arcane weapons in the winter preview is fine. But I agree that the gap should not increasing like how it shows in those graphs, its not symmetrical. I think people don't really care about these things anymore because its all about gold loot in pve. It does matter in pvp but nobody plays it anymore.

People will only cry about class balance when there is gold involved, remember what happened in hydra that is the sad truth. People do not even remember anymore that mage get 5% and warrior get 10% damage buff on both raids. If everything is balanced that should not be there, so even devs agree that it is not balanced.
Lastly I think armor for mage should be raised by like 40, I mean that is like 2 excellent jewels.

I hate to say this but I am starting to see that your analogy might be right, and boy I do hope it's not. But anyway thanks for the feedback.

Thanks for taking the effort to make this thread but sorry I think this thread is going to die like any other rational thing on internet.

I think its better to have 1 logical insightful comment on this thread then having a zillions of comments that makes no sense. And Its Okay even if it dies, I am sure it will help some other nerd like me in future to understand and pick things up

[Twiinks]

+1


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[Dispressor]

Wow good post with fact and stats hope devs read it +1000. Hope we get a new baseline.
I know that I am asking u a lot but I think that a new baseline for stats is needed.
I will be great if u post an analisys of damage done by skill and dps done considering cool down.
Cool work again one of the best post in forum section.

[Nohealth]

Ok. Thats not true. The hole lb, not 3-4 in top who run 24/7.

Basically, two thirds of the players spend less energy (rogues running way faster given the same amount of time), that means less plats, that means less money.

Hypothetically, if you expand the event to 300 days, so you would remove the possibility for some players running 24/7, guess who will be on the lb? rogues, all of them!

If you cannot comprehend this basic concept then i got nothing else to speak to you.

Its not like devs can't ckeck the data if they care enough to do so.

Wow good post with fact and stats hope devs read it +1000. Hope we get a new baseline.
I know that I am asking u a lot but I think that a new baseline for stats is needed.
I will be great if u post an analisys of damage done by skill and dps done considering cool down.
Cool work again one of the best post in forum section.

For some reason I can't like the posts so I'll just QUOTE them by giving it +1 XD

[PsychoNuke]

I will be great if u post an analisys of damage done by skill and dps done considering cool down.

This is something I want to do as this has been suggested many times on forum, I am just stuck at getting materials. I need a level 71 Warrior and Rogue who can help. Because unfortunately my Rogue and Warrior alts are level 66 :\ (These things are very easy to do on public test servers, unfortunately its closed in AL )

[slaaayerrr]

Um... If there's no imbalance, then why at the end of events rogues lead the lb with most points followed by mages then warriors?

last 2-3 events there were warriors who got most points if u didnt notice, and how event lb can show any balance idk