Regarding Elite Dungeons...

[phillyr]

Why not add a casual elite button to the world map?

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[Milan Lame Man]

Why not add a casual elite button to the world map?

Exactly my thought.
In addition to Aquaducts and [Aquaducts] there would be {Aquaducts}, untimed/joinable elite Aquaducts. And so on.
That should not take that much work to implement as all the code is already there.

I see where the worries about economy come from. I would definitely try to organize party swapping at boss from non-elixir to elixir members.
OTOH, if pet/pot spamming is fixed in the same release, we might see loot prices skyrocketing anyway.

[Carapace]

Why not add a casual elite button to the world map?

This was actually the original path we were going down for making Casual Elites, however the maintenance moving forward would double our future workloads when changing elites or adding new ones, and there is the patch size for those downloaded updates to consider. There are of course numerous other internal factors we can't discuss openly on the forums regarding our tech. While it would work, it's not a preferred solution, and we want to do it right, or we want to do it soon which is the main reason this thread exists. To get a pulse on how everyone feels about the potential options we are considering.

In response to an earlier post regarding NOT allowing random people to join, but being invite only is interesting. We will have to mull over the potential consequences of such a thing but it makes sense to me as a gut reaction.

[phillyr]

This was actually the original path we were going down for making Casual Elites, however the maintenance moving forward would double our future workloads when changing elites or adding new ones, and there is the patch size for those downloaded updates to consider. There are of course numerous other internal factors we can't discuss openly on the forums regarding our tech. While it would work, it's not a preferred solution, and we want to do it right, or we want to do it soon which is the main reason this thread exists. To get a pulse on how everyone feels about the potential options we are considering.

In response to an earlier post regarding NOT allowing random people to join, but being invite only is interesting. We will have to mull over the potential consequences of such a thing but it makes sense to me as a gut reaction.

I understand why not now, it was just the first thing that popped in my head. I do like the invite only on elites...keeps unwanted randoms out of the map

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[Thrindal]

My primary concern with either solution would be loot. I just don't think someone coming in at the end just to fight the Boss should have the same access to Achievements and Loot that full runners do. Achievements should remain a complete run required for achievement. Loot should possibly be better in timed runs or have a higher drop rate than untimed runs.

I do think having an "Elite Lite" option is a good idea I just don't think the same benefits should be awarded to "Elite Lite" players as to "True Elite" players.

[Rare]

I think option 1 is great.

[notfaded1]

This just may be the greatest thing to happen to the Rogue since the introduction of the bow! When you get to the boss and have extra space, who you gonna call? A tank? Nah, we all know tanks are useless on bosses. A Sorc? Where's the crowd that needs to be controlled. No, you would invite someone that means YOU get your loot the FASTEST and that is the one toon specifically designed for killing bosses. I shall patiently await your call.

I concur with Fluff here... call the Rogue Army and even better with an Arcane Ring ;^}

Sometimes if you can't get an entire party together out of your guild it would be nice to run elites with random others once in while for sure.
And once again like Fluff said... Who you gonna call at that boss to kill 'em quick??? The rogue army that's who!

Oh yeah... and whichever you can implement right away let's give it try!

[Kakashis]

Glad you guys are looking into elite dungeons! Option 1 or option 2 won't address the core problems associated with elites. The main reason why many aren't running elites currently is because the cost to benefit ratio is way too high than say farming for locked crates or eggs in normal maps. The later is 100% profits albeit at a slower pace, but MUCH higher chance and profits are guaranteed. At least in elite NORDR, the daily 20 boss quest allowed players to get most of their potions back even if they looted nothing. Also, of the daily quests that are availble now, none of them function in elite mode! Essentially you need a vast amount of gold to sustain elites when you loot nothing. I'm using 30-60k in potions a day. Sounds like a lot, but it's really only 1000-2000health pots and 2000-3000mana pots. They add up to almost running you poor!

For those used to elites, it's a challenge and although quite elusive, that one nice pink after a few days of hard farming allows us to continue for the thrill and fun. For the average new player who struggles to find a party, joining PUGS "might" be a solution, but a vast number of people that run elites are running full party and wouldn't want a new comer to join in especially when you're already at a boss. We would rather give it to one of our own guildmate than a random at that point.

It's the cost and time consumption that keeps making elites less favorable to the greater community. If you want everyone to run them, make it like season 1 difficulty where it was very simple and lightening fast, but loot becomes worthless. Keep it the way it is now or your proposed new way and I guarantee that it'll still be roughly the same people that run them now. Perhaps a happier medium between season one and the way it is now? Bottom line is that Option 1 or Option 2 are not going to change people's interest in elites because it's not addressing the core issue.

[octavos]

Glad you guys are looking into elite dungeons! Option 1 or option 2 won't address the core problems associated with elites. The main reason why many aren't running elites currently is because the cost to benefit ratio is way too high than say farming for locked crates or eggs in normal maps. The later is 100% profits albeit at a slower pace, but MUCH higher chance and profits are guaranteed. At least in elite NORDR, the daily 20 boss quest allowed players to get most of their potions back even if they looted nothing. Also, of the daily quests that are availble now, none of them function in elite mode! Essentially you need a vast amount of gold sustain elites when you loot nothing. I'm using 30-50k in potions a day.

For those used to elites, it's a challenge and although quite elusive, that one nice pink after a few days of hard farming allows us to continue for the thrill and fun. For the average new player who struggles to find a party, joining PUGS "might" be a solution, but a vast number of people that run elites are running full party and wouldn't want a new comer to join in.

It's the cost and time consumption that keeps making elites less favorable to the greater community. If you want everyone to run them, make it like season 1 difficulty where it was very simple and easy, but loot becomes worthless. Keep it the way it is now and only a handful of players will run them. Perhaps a happy medium? Option 1 or Option 2 are not going to change people's interest in elites.

+1 now that right there..is why I cant do elites..its hard marking money, and to merch you need to have spent quite a bit of time and effort to make that a viable option.
the cost/benifit is to demanding..thats why normal maps are just fine with me.

[Fyrce]

I'd prefer Option 1 but I wouldn't mind trying Option 2 with the following:

When a group starts, the instance is timed. The timed instance is either a public PUG game or a private PARTY instance.

When someone leaves or dc's, the dungeon becomes open if it was a PUG game.

If it is a PARTY game, only party members may join. This may include old and new party members. I suppose in this case, it's also an open game, but only open to that party.

[GoodSyntax]

Glad you guys are looking into elite dungeons! Option 1 or option 2 won't address the core problems associated with elites. The main reason why many aren't running elites currently is because the cost to benefit ratio is way too high than say farming for locked crates or eggs in normal maps. The later is 100% profits albeit at a slower pace, but MUCH higher chance and profits are guaranteed. At least in elite NORDR, the daily 20 boss quest allowed players to get most of their potions back even if they looted nothing. Also, of the daily quests that are availble now, none of them function in elite mode! Essentially you need a vast amount of gold to sustain elites when you loot nothing. I'm using 30-60k in potions a day. Sounds like a lot, but it's really only 1000-2000health pots and 2000-3000mana pots. They add up to almost running you poor!

For those used to elites, it's a challenge and although quite elusive, that one nice pink after a few days of hard farming allows us to continue for the thrill and fun. For the average new player who struggles to find a party, joining PUGS "might" be a solution, but a vast number of people that run elites are running full party and wouldn't want a new comer to join in especially when you're already at a boss. We would rather give it to one of our own guildmate than a random at that point.

It's the cost and time consumption that keeps making elites less favorable to the greater community. If you want everyone to run them, make it like season 1 difficulty where it was very simple and lightening fast, but loot becomes worthless. Keep it the way it is now or your proposed new way and I guarantee that it'll still be roughly the same people that run them now. Perhaps a happier medium between season one and the way it is now? Bottom line is that Option 1 or Option 2 are not going to change people's interest in elites because it's not addressing the core issue.

Perfectly said! For farming runs (other than eggs and crates) to be viable, there has to be a balance between payoff and cost. This is the reason why I suggested intermediate leveled maps for current and previous seasons. Not only will it give mainstream, crate geared players something more suitable than the pounding, brutal strugglebus they receive in the Elite Caves of Tarawea, but it will give folks that routinely run elites a chance to develop new strategies against mobs that you cannot one hit and that actually could kill you. Gear that drops in these midlevel maps should also be appropriate for midlevel - meaning second or third tier elite legendaries and at best Elite Silver chests. This way, players can build up an income stream and save enough to buy gear that will prepare them for the true elites.

This will have the following impacts on the game:

1 - Mainstream players could actually find PUGs that can run with them, without it turning into hour long maps.
2 - Players can develop a modest income without the extreme expenses of elite maps.
3 - Second tier and third tier elite legendaries will drop in price and become more affordable, yet still have enough value to provide positive income.
4 - Top tier elite legendaries and elite golden chests retain their value as more players become introduced/accustomed to true elite maps.
5 - Crate and Egg availability is reduced (since farmers have more viable options for positive income), which leads to increased pricing on these items.

[falmear]

Perfectly said! For farming runs (other than eggs and crates) to be viable, there has to be a balance between payoff and cost. This is the reason why I suggested intermediate leveled maps for current and previous seasons. Not only will it give mainstream, crate geared players something more suitable than the pounding, brutal strugglebus they receive in the Elite Caves of Tarawea, but it will give folks that routinely run elites a chance to develop new strategies against mobs that you cannot one hit and that actually could kill you. Gear that drops in these midlevel maps should also be appropriate for midlevel - meaning second or third tier elite legendaries and at best Elite Silver chests. This way, players can build up an income stream and save enough to buy gear that will prepare them for the true elites.

This will have the following impacts on the game:

1 - Mainstream players could actually find PUGs that can run with them, without it turning into hour long maps.
2 - Players can develop a modest income without the extreme expenses of elite maps.
3 - Second tier and third tier elite legendaries will drop in price and become more affordable, yet still have enough value to provide positive income.
4 - Top tier elite legendaries and elite golden chests retain their value as more players become introduced/accustomed to true elite maps.
5 - Crate and Egg availability is reduced (since farmers have more viable options for positive income), which leads to increased pricing on these items.

Most of you completely over look the fact that anything that is easy to farm drops rapidly in price as the auction house gets flooded. I can remember when Malison was like 1M+ and Elite Bael could one shot you. Malison is now a 50k egg. Adding intermediate elite maps doesn't help anyone because you are looking for some middle ground between normal and elite maps. What will happens is all the pros will flock to these maps when the prices are good and farm the heck out of it. Once the prices fall, few will be interested and we are back to square one. The only things of value in the game are when something is good and rare. The most important of the two is how rare it is.

If you want a modest income then I suggest people do the following:

1) Go farm locked crates in KM3. Its boring but you can make a decent income on this.
2) Understand what maps drop which eggs in normal and elite. And farm these.
3) Run elite The Wilds in Tindirin, this map is easy if you are properly geared. This is the PUG map people should be running. And if you die the run back is shorter and easier then other maps. And this is the place where people should be learning their skills.
4) Farm for teeth normal and elite Tindirin. So far I have farmed 458 teeth since the expansion released. However most of that was in elites. But the first few weeks I was able to farm 150 teeth off the normal maps. And on the first day dragonite bar was released, I sold it for a lot of gold. You can either buy helm/armor or dragonite bar and either sell or use the helm/armor.

Anytime scaling is reduced, the loot sells for very little. So when its hard, barrier to entry keeps the loot rare and the price high. This has been already discussed back when they wanted to eliminate elites entirely.

[Tendirin]

Hope this works will probaly be hard work

[Jenvy]

No.

NO.

NO!

N to the freakin' O!!!!

Option 1 and Option 2 are both bad ideas that will be abused by solo farmers inviting guildies at the end of a run. This will utterly decimate the elite pink drop economy, making running elites worthless.

Do you WANT to destroy your game, STS?

The only fix that should be implemented is allowing dcd players back into the zone. Nothing more. If you can't figure out a way to do this AND ONLY THIS, then don't change anything.

[utpal]

option 2 is good.
and the serious guys tht want lb run will party up with other serious guys. so not frustrating i think.

[ideawaster]

Good. Now we can start the map with mages with ice, clock and fire. When reaching the boss, one by one could logged out slowly and swap in Rou account to kill the boss. That means we could swap in any classes at any point of time during the elite game.

[Joncheese]

Hello everyone! We have some thoughts about Elite dungeons and their accessibility, and so I'm posing the question to the community. Thanks for taking some time to read and share your thoughts!

Regarding Elite Dungeons
Currently Elite dungeons are very rigid in that every run is a timed run. Due to the nature of a timed run being a potential leader board run, additional players are locked out from joining a timed Elite run once the timer has begun. Typically there is frustration associated with our more casual players that would very much like to defeat the content, and not be at the mercy of latency or players leaving mid run. This results in the run being unfruitful and leaves players with an unfavorable experience. Internally we have discussed two possible means of solving this problem, and so I am going to take a moment to convey these options to the community in such a way that we can make a more educated move in regards to potential implementations to address this issue.

Before getting into specifics, the cornerstone of these ideas is the idea of “Casual” Elite maps. This would be the exact same content as the normal Elite runs, only without the timer component and no leader board implications. This means that we can create Elite maps where players can join, leave, and progress further with multiple people interchangeably in order to experience the content free from the restrictions of the timed runs. Invite your friends, invite your guild mates, or replace a party member at any time during the run!

First solution
The first solution is our ideal solution. It creates an up front, easy to understand user experience that results in the best of both worlds. There will be a preference/option in the game options that allows the player to ENABLE or DISABLE Casual Elite mode, and as a result the game will funnel players trying to do timed runs into their respective dungeons, and casual players into theirs. The two would never cross paths, meaning a timed runner would never end up in a timeless map, and vice versa.

The problem here is that it will take quite a bit of tech time to complete, and as a result would be pushed out to a much further potential release date. We do however believe this is the correct way to handle this from a usability and design perspective.


Second Solution
The secondary solution is a bit more circumstantial. Players will all still start an Elite zone as a timed run, however once a player leaves of their own free will, or a player is disconnected longer than a specified amount of time the zone becomes an open run. The timer will go away, and other players will be allowed to join in from invites and others coming in to Elite games from the world map.

Things to consider here is that the pool of players will remain mixed. If player A and his team are doing a timed run and a teammate times out, it’s no longer a timed run. Player B then tries to join an Elite zone to do a timed run, but now instead joins this run in progress where he cannot do a timed instance. It really has a tendency to frustrate players interested in doing timed runs more than players who just want to be able to complete a zone and invite their friends after the fact. We feel we can justify this under the assumption that serious teams running elite maps have a full team that they are trying to run with.

There are some edge cases naturally – Players running Elite maps solo, teams of two or three, etc. but overall this is something that could be implemented fairly quickly by comparison to the original (and proper) solution.

We’re looking for community thoughts on this before discussing and getting plans moving.

Thanks everyone!
Carapace

Personally i would just allow you to be able to invite back a dcd member of the party or another player if needed. Its the simplest fix and the only one that is needed. Once you start messing around with map difficulties to accommodate lower geared players you start causing problems in the economy. It's my understanding that these are what lower level maps are for..... when i was undergeared i couldnt do certain maps, which is fine with me as i wasnt geared enough. I remember spending 2 weeks on mount spyr..... Surely endgame (last few maps) should be hard and you should need high end pink gear minimum?

Re-invite option would work because:

If dcd member comes back on line he/she can be re invited.
If player has to leave the run isnt wasted.
There are no random players joining.
Economy remains the same (pinks still high prices).

Neither.

4 suggestions though -

#1 - Similar but bit different to what u had in mind. An untimed Elite mode with same loot table, comparatively lower % drop rate, easier mobs but with higher hp. For casuals or death-conscious gamers. Casual entry until x number of mobs are killed. If you're really worried about economy maybe impose a damage cap or something.

#2 - Introduce a timed chain-dungeon mode for each area. Similar to Elite Mines of Nordia only u don't have to create new maps per se. Clear 4 maps, 4 bosses in a row for a combined time. Could stagger release of each mega-dungeon, make them only available for limited time to sustain player interest/activity/spend. Well u can probably think of how it could benefit u monetarily blah3 anyway so I'll leave it to u.

#3 - 15 to 20-man elite raid dungeons. I'd love to see this, don't know if can be pulled off gracefully on mobile. Maybe test the waters with 10. PVE based guilds typically lose out in rank value since activity is currently heavily PVP-player-centred, the idea of kdr also in pvper's favour. This would even out the odds easily, I think, and encourage PVE-ers to get geared (ka-chingching for their bling bling).

#4 - Guild "quest" elite maps with a countdown timer.

Think abt it.

You should look at these suggestions

[Energizeric]

Hello everyone! We have some thoughts about Elite dungeons and their accessibility, and so I'm posing the question to the community. Thanks for taking some time to read and share your thoughts!

Regarding Elite Dungeons
Currently Elite dungeons are very rigid in that every run is a timed run. Due to the nature of a timed run being a potential leader board run, additional players are locked out from joining a timed Elite run once the timer has begun. Typically there is frustration associated with our more casual players that would very much like to defeat the content, and not be at the mercy of latency or players leaving mid run. This results in the run being unfruitful and leaves players with an unfavorable experience. Internally we have discussed two possible means of solving this problem, and so I am going to take a moment to convey these options to the community in such a way that we can make a more educated move in regards to potential implementations to address this issue.

Before getting into specifics, the cornerstone of these ideas is the idea of “Casual” Elite maps. This would be the exact same content as the normal Elite runs, only without the timer component and no leader board implications. This means that we can create Elite maps where players can join, leave, and progress further with multiple people interchangeably in order to experience the content free from the restrictions of the timed runs. Invite your friends, invite your guild mates, or replace a party member at any time during the run!

First solution
The first solution is our ideal solution. It creates an up front, easy to understand user experience that results in the best of both worlds. There will be a preference/option in the game options that allows the player to ENABLE or DISABLE Casual Elite mode, and as a result the game will funnel players trying to do timed runs into their respective dungeons, and casual players into theirs. The two would never cross paths, meaning a timed runner would never end up in a timeless map, and vice versa.

The problem here is that it will take quite a bit of tech time to complete, and as a result would be pushed out to a much further potential release date. We do however believe this is the correct way to handle this from a usability and design perspective.


Second Solution
The secondary solution is a bit more circumstantial. Players will all still start an Elite zone as a timed run, however once a player leaves of their own free will, or a player is disconnected longer than a specified amount of time the zone becomes an open run. The timer will go away, and other players will be allowed to join in from invites and others coming in to Elite games from the world map.

Things to consider here is that the pool of players will remain mixed. If player A and his team are doing a timed run and a teammate times out, it’s no longer a timed run. Player B then tries to join an Elite zone to do a timed run, but now instead joins this run in progress where he cannot do a timed instance. It really has a tendency to frustrate players interested in doing timed runs more than players who just want to be able to complete a zone and invite their friends after the fact. We feel we can justify this under the assumption that serious teams running elite maps have a full team that they are trying to run with.

There are some edge cases naturally – Players running Elite maps solo, teams of two or three, etc. but overall this is something that could be implemented fairly quickly by comparison to the original (and proper) solution.

We’re looking for community thoughts on this before discussing and getting plans moving.

Thanks everyone!
Carapace

Hey Carapace, I did not have time to read this whole thread, but after reading your post, I have a suggestion that is similar to option #2 with some small changes that I think would solve all problems.....

If the players in an elite zone are in a party, then nobody else should be able to join, and the timed run will continue even if someone gets disconnected. However, if this group of players wants others to be able to join, then they must disband their party. Once the party disappears, then others are free to join and the run becomes a PUG run and the timer disappears.

If there is no party to begin with, then it is a PUG from the beginning with no timer.

If a player wishes to run an elite map solo, then all he/she has to do is use the old "/partyinvite 000" command and then it will be a solo party in a timed run.


I think this solves all the issues you are hoping to solve. The question is if you can accomplish this. Can you re-categorize from timed run to non-timed run in the middle. It sounds like you can based on your #2 option.

[Waheedski]

Whatever the option the community seeks is the best option.

But make sure the market does not get saturated! I can't emphasis this enough. As Kaalizaa said have a hard mode - but have a loot table slightly less than what you can get in elites. Basically dont stack the loot drops in hard mode with what you get in elite drops.

You can have potion drops, maybe elixir drops, epic, rare, legendary pet drops., 2nd, 3rd rate gear drops etc etc..

[Nitexx]

How hard would it be to simply give a token to all players that started the run, and thus allow only a dcd player that bears that token re-entry? This can still remain a timed run, without allowing swapping. I'm assuming if a login has more than one character you can identify the character for that login. Thus elites can then remain as is.

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