What do you think?

[stricker20000]

super fascinating thread.

Just to inject a bit of how we utilize this kind of stuff, the original poster is doing an example from the point of view of a single person farming a single item for themselves. Unfortunately in an MMO the reality is that while you may want the item for yourself, there are thousands of others that also want this item. So if you have say 10,000 people with those odds farming for certain things then you start to see that it's not about an individual farming an item, but the entire server farming for an item. This is where the largest disconnect is when it comes to loot distribution, because you have to think in terms of the entire player base and not the individual experience. If the odds were in favor of every person farming for themselves in a reasonable amount of time no one would be farming anymore because everyone is sick of getting the drop that isn't worth anything. In the end it all goes back to basic economics, and supply and demand.

Just food for thought

Thats true but its so luck based that farming for it is barely worth it. It would be worth it if a player would farm for other stuff( that is actually lootable but still worth something) there and loots the set item just additionally as a "lottery reward".

Anyways I'm still a fan of a system that rewards farming. Like a progress an individual farmer makes towards an item. Farming for the mythic glintstone set was hard too but players had a progress farming it since fangs were lootable. You needed hundreds of fangs but you got more and more parts of the set the more you farmed. For set item it is like: "well...win the lottery or farm for nothing and end up buying it."

What I am trying to say is that the individual player doesn't benefit from farming, it is purely luck based and doesn't matter if you are a hardworking farmer or not.

[Melthyz]

Thats true but its so luck based that farming for it is barely worth it. It would be worth it if a player would farm for other stuff( that is actually lootable but still worth something) there and loots the set item just additionally as a "lottery reward".

Anyways I'm still a fan of a system that rewards farming. Like a progress an individual farmer makes towards an item. Farming for the mythic glintstone set was hard too but players had a progress farming it since fangs were lootable. You needed hundreds of fangs but you got more and more parts of the set the more you farmed. For set item it is like: "well...win the lottery or farm for nothing and end up buying it."

What I am trying to say is that the individual player doesn't benefit from farming, it is purely luck based and doesn't matter if you are a hardworking farmer or not.

They substituted it with coins, abeit a poor one since the price of those keep dropping by the day. I totally agree with you as much as the Glinstone set was a pain in the butt at least there were other side items we could've looted to make some gold. Underhul is more like "set item" or bust even those gold chest are pretty rare, looted 3-4 elite gold heretics and i've ran those maps hundreds of times...

[stricker20000]

They substituted it with coins, abeit a poor one since the price of those keep dropping by the day. I totally agree with you as much as the Glinstone set was a pain in the butt at least there were other side items we could've looted to make some gold. Underhul is more like "set item" or bust even those gold chest are pretty rare, looted 3-4 elite gold heretics and i've ran those maps hundreds of times...

Farming those maps is absolutely not worth it unless you loot set item.

[Plqgue]

super fascinating thread.

Just to inject a bit of how we utilize this kind of stuff, the original poster is doing an example from the point of view of a single person farming a single item for themselves. Unfortunately in an MMO the reality is that while you may want the item for yourself, there are thousands of others that also want this item. So if you have say 10,000 people with those odds farming for certain things then you start to see that it's not about an individual farming an item, but the entire server farming for an item. This is where the largest disconnect is when it comes to loot distribution, because you have to think in terms of the entire player base and not the individual experience. If the odds were in favor of every person farming for themselves in a reasonable amount of time no one would be farming anymore because everyone is sick of getting the drop that isn't worth anything. In the end it all goes back to basic economics, and supply and demand.

Just food for thought

But weeks and weeks of farming for nothing is also boring

[Niixed]

super fascinating thread.

Just to inject a bit of how we utilize this kind of stuff, the original poster is doing an example from the point of view of a single person farming a single item for themselves. Unfortunately in an MMO the reality is that while you may want the item for yourself, there are thousands of others that also want this item. So if you have say 10,000 people with those odds farming for certain things then you start to see that it's not about an individual farming an item, but the entire server farming for an item. This is where the largest disconnect is when it comes to loot distribution, because you have to think in terms of the entire player base and not the individual experience. If the odds were in favor of every person farming for themselves in a reasonable amount of time no one would be farming anymore because everyone is sick of getting the drop that isn't worth anything. In the end it all goes back to basic economics, and supply and demand.

Just food for thought

Thank you for your input Carapace.

Maybe the issue is that devs haven't fully accounted for psychological and social effects that exceedingly low odds have on players collectively? If we, individually, can't be a hero, then why are we playing the game? If my individual efforts are extremely likely to yield negative results in perpetuity, then what motive do I have to attempt that feat? Players don't want an oversupply, but we also don't want to literally-impossible odds.

AL's odds model strongly affects player activity because the transaction cost (time+money) is extremely high. In Vegas, slot machines have impossible odds, but they are still attractive because the effort needed to play is minimal: place bet, pull lever, done. These days it takes less than a second per transaction.

AL's equivalent slot machine requires us to run something akin to a marathon each time we pull the lever. This is exactly what I mean about players-as-a-group thinking: if the odds don't justify individual runs, individuals won't attempt. Thoroughly considering the individual's perspective will help you make better decisions about players collectively. That group of players choosing not to attempt to farm the Antignome set will only grow as the extremely low odds become more apparent through personal experience and social communications. Shouldn't one of the devs' top priorities be player participation?

In basic economics, undersupply and oversupply are equally serious states. What is the actual equilibrium? I don't know, but I do know disequilibrium is what we have right now.

[Kaziscate]

super fascinating thread.

Just to inject a bit of how we utilize this kind of stuff, the original poster is doing an example from the point of view of a single person farming a single item for themselves. Unfortunately in an MMO the reality is that while you may want the item for yourself, there are thousands of others that also want this item. So if you have say 10,000 people with those odds farming for certain things then you start to see that it's not about an individual farming an item, but the entire server farming for an item. This is where the largest disconnect is when it comes to loot distribution, because you have to think in terms of the entire player base and not the individual experience. If the odds were in favor of every person farming for themselves in a reasonable amount of time no one would be farming anymore because everyone is sick of getting the drop that isn't worth anything. In the end it all goes back to basic economics, and supply and demand.

Just food for thought

So if 1 million people farmed the Elite Cryostar for the set helm/belt, 2 people will get the set helm/belt?

[extrapayah]

also don't forget that, the thing we're trying to get is 1 out of 5 set item that will likely outdated next season (and even worse, it have upgrades), it's not like planar pendant, and we can't finish elite citadel+cryostar as fast as arena last two seasons.

also you made the set drop rate by thinking that it is community who's farming, but banished helm is not even tradeable! and you have to farm by your own for the last piece, the amulet (okay not by your own, but it's only for who already finished the quest!, and at half season, they were only 1-2 person!)

and aside from that, the loot distribution in whole arlor world is not distributed correctly based on effort of game time, longer and more difficult maps doesn't seem to give more benefit than running dozen of easier map at equal accumulative time, this problem won't rise if only devs play their game regularly

a bit out of topic, hunter elixir were designed to have short time assuming we can got multiple entries from others' invite, but after the 'lazy' fix, you haven't redesigned the hunter elixir...

also, please fix the unresponsiveness of the recent client... too many freeze, lags, fake ping, i think you need to find a way to make your client and system responsive enough even when we have weapons/skills that deals enormously multiple hits like aegis or flameforged staff. like grouping multiple hits damage into one. the messages transferred between client and server should be scalable, that it is possible to compress or group multiple commands/feedback into a static sized message

[Niixed]

also you made the set drop rate by thinking that it is community who's farming, but banished helm is not even tradeable! and you have to farm by your own for the last piece, the amulet (okay not by your own, but it's only for who already finished the quest!, and at half season, they were only 1-2 person!)

Just wanted to highlight this salient point. [emphasis mine]

[extrapayah]

even though it's farmed by community, how do you think we should value the item? i think most of us will think the value of the item by comparing it with the effort we will need to farm the item personally.

let's say with that kind of droprate, i expect myself to loot it by 16 years of playing non-stop, so even if i'm using as low as 10k gold per day as a daily income, i will think that any price below 60m is actually more cost/time efficient! is it okay having a 60m item that will be expired in one season? and again, it's only one piece out of several pieces!

even i feel it's not right when i sold a raw cryostar core at 10m, but after knowing how low the droprate is, it's way too underpriced, and calling a 10m item as underpriced is not ok, however you see it

[stricker20000]

even though it's farmed by community, how do you think we should value the item? i think most of us will think the value of the item by comparing it with the effort we will need to farm the item personally.

let's say with that kind of droprate, i expect myself to loot it by 16 years of playing non-stop, so even if i'm using as low as 10k gold per day as a daily income, i will think at any price below 60m is actually more cost/time efficient! is it okay having a 60m item that will be expired in one season?

Indeed but they can not just increase the drop rate significantly to make it lootable for everyone because that would flood the market. But there should be some progress while farming. Even if it is just the drop rate increasing with the number of bosses killed there until you loot it. Can not be the right way to let farming be non sense.

[Faliziaga]

super fascinating thread.

Just to inject a bit of how we utilize this kind of stuff, the original poster is doing an example from the point of view of a single person farming a single item for themselves. Unfortunately in an MMO the reality is that while you may want the item for yourself, there are thousands of others that also want this item. So if you have say 10,000 people with those odds farming for certain things then you start to see that it's not about an individual farming an item, but the entire server farming for an item. This is where the largest disconnect is when it comes to loot distribution, because you have to think in terms of the entire player base and not the individual experience. If the odds were in favor of every person farming for themselves in a reasonable amount of time no one would be farming anymore because everyone is sick of getting the drop that isn't worth anything. In the end it all goes back to basic economics, and supply and demand.

Just food for thought

I would like to know whether the current in game amount of antignome helms and belts corresponds to what you've expected the entire player base to have looted after all these weeks since the expansion is out. Do you think the supply is adequate? Furthermore I would like to know what your data reveals about the development of number of runs made in the new maps in the last weeks. Personally, I am stuck at 3/5 parts of the antignome set (helm and belt missing) and after weeks of very intense farming I have completely stopped to run these maps for a while now.
In my opinion there is a wide field between only a handful of people owning the antignome set and people getting tired looting set items not worth anything because of an oversupply. Players want to enjoy new content, there should be fun and less boring, endlessly repetitive, non-sense, frustrating runs that lead to nothing and are topped with the crafted armors' stats randomness.

[Ardbeg]

Just a short correction: You can activate the questlines by lending the gear. This also holds true for the last part of the quest, the banished amulet. There are definitively more than 1-2 players hunting it, but it is an exclusive sport with the necessary elixier.

[stricker20000]

Just a short correction: You can activate the questlines by lending the gear. This also holds true for the last part of the quest, the banished amulet. There are definitively more than 1-2 players hunting it, but it is an exclusive sport with the necessary elixier.

True but the need to lend the gear to skip antignome set can't be aimed. On top of that elite maps are pretty hard without antignome set and don't give real profit. (pots, ankhs,...)

[Ardbeg]

True but the need to lend the gear to skip antignome set can't be aimed. On top of that elite maps are pretty hard without antignome set and don't give real profit. (pots, ankhs,...)

It is designed that way, so it can be lended, that was confirmed by Vroom. All in all (Underhuul timed runs aside) it is a very expensive set with limited use and no relevance in pvp. It makes runs exciting because you know you *could* hit the jackpot, but it s not practically farmable.
As i stated before, thats ok with me as long as there are ways to progress on the new maps without the set. So far this scheme has made poor lucky farmers rich and rich unlucky collectors poor, lol.

[Kingofninjas]

Thank you for your input Carapace.

Maybe the issue is that devs haven't fully accounted for psychological and social effects that exceedingly low odds have on players collectively? If we, individually, can't be a hero, then why are we playing the game? If my individual efforts are extremely likely to yield negative results in perpetuity, then what motive do I have to attempt that feat? Players don't want an oversupply, but we also don't want to literally-impossible odds.

AL's odds model strongly affects player activity because the transaction cost (time+money) is extremely high. In Vegas, slot machines have impossible odds, but they are still attractive because the effort needed to play is minimal: place bet, pull lever, done. These days it takes less than a second per transaction.

AL's equivalent slot machine requires us to run something akin to a marathon each time we pull the lever. This is exactly what I mean about players-as-a-group thinking: if the odds don't justify individual runs, individuals won't attempt. Thoroughly considering the individual's perspective will help you make better decisions about players collectively. That group of players choosing not to attempt to farm the Antignome set will only grow as the extremely low odds become more apparent through personal experience and social communications. Shouldn't one of the devs' top priorities be player participation?

In basic economics, undersupply and oversupply are equally serious states. What is the actual equilibrium? I don't know, but I do know disequilibrium is what we have right now.

I think the closest AL ever reached towards farming equilibrium was with the planar tombs (when breeze was worth 1-3m).

Every single run was rewarded with planar fragments, with a chance for planar tomb chests which commanded some value because they contained the means to make the best fear in the game.

[Eagleye]

It is designed that way, so it can be lended, that was confirmed by Vroom. All in all (Underhuul timed runs aside) it is a very expensive set with limited use and no relevance in pvp. It makes runs exciting because you know you *could* hit the jackpot, but it s not practically farmable.
As i stated before, thats ok with me as long as there are ways to progress on the new maps without the set. So far this scheme has made poor lucky farmers rich and rich unlucky collectors poor, lol.

If it was truly designed to be "lended" that's absolute stupidity on the Dev's part. Sorry to say most of the people in this game arnt gonna be willing to lend out hella pricey items. That's literally promoting scamming ..the fact that you can lend is cool to complete the quests but unrealistic for the majority. This set was made specifically for the 1% of the 1% and im still confused as to how sts doesn't see a problem in that. Your average endgame player will never see a full antignome set and that's disheartening for a lot of players. Your opinion is obviously bias because you have it, so of course your gonna defend it. You and a handful of players are the only ones with full sets and imo defending it is selfish at this point. How many elite runs have you gotten to do with full antignome or banished parties? Its staggeringly low if at all and the expansion has been out for months...something's gotta give at this point that's a no brainer.

[Ardbeg]

If it was truly designed to be "lended" that's absolute stupidity on the Dev's part. Sorry to say most of the people in this game arnt gonna be willing to lend out hella pricey items. That's literally promoting scamming ..the fact that you can lend is cool to complete the quests but unrealistic for the majority. This set was made specifically for the 1% of the 1% and im still confused as to how sts doesn't see a problem in that. Your average endgame player will never see a full antignome set and that's disheartening for a lot of players. Your opinion is obviously bias because you have it, so of course your gonna defend it. You and a handful of players are the only ones with full sets and imo defending it is selfish at this point. How many elite runs have you gotten to do with full antignome or banished parties? Its staggeringly low if at all and the expansion has been out for months...something's gotta give at this point that's a no brainer.

Please read my post again, especially the last sentence.

I am ok with having items of all tiers in this game, be it RNG or crafting. All i was trying to state again was, that this obviously was never intended to be farmed by one person, but to add some excitement to the maps. This is something completely different to the Glintstone set and thats all i wanted to say. Don't shoot the messenger, give your Feedback to sts please!

[Luciano Lobo]

I just prefer that the coin and token system will always be present for everything because I don't want to die farming or spend years in getting something useful. I like to farm but no to the point of ludopathy.

[Eagleye]

Please read my post again, especially the last sentence.

I am ok with having items of all tiers in this game, be it RNG or crafting. All i was trying to state again was, that this obviously was never intended to be farmed by one person, but to add some excitement to the maps. This is something completely different to the Glintstone set and thats all i wanted to say. Don't shoot the messenger, give your Feedback to sts please!

The messenger hasn't been shot just sharing my opinion .. And your one of the few who defend it so expect to clash with others who feel strongly different about it.

[Ardbeg]

here we are on lending talk again, just like the times lending gold for midas touch, sounds genious

well good luck with your exclusive sport, I made enough to get the set by sitting on expedition camp than doing this exclusive sport. I could go for it, But there is the problem the party im gonna farm most likely wont have the set and they will die like flies which will lead my teams and my own deaths, team will give up ill give up

without the set farming elites is torture and im not a tank i cant lead the pt and save ppl besides you burn elixir on your wasted time aswell

you and avaree talk like its cake event here vanity weapon drops like cake gold flowing everywhere furnitues awesome to farm etc Its simply No the only gold income to regular players is the events like previous goblin event and hoarded goblin chests thats flowing gold and it actually hyped up the economy a bit

farming at this time is horrific and frustratingif you design a dungeon to be hard you adjust loot acordingly and idk others but vanity wesapon isnt my type of motivation on farm

Dont play deaf and blind please, game havent made only for you two and few more

1)I was not promoting the lending system. I was here when borrowed Midas Touch and Arcane Rings led to tons of Drama. In fact i was asking if this is a glitch when i first noticed it.

2)All normal maps and elite map 1 and 2 are very much doable with normal gear (yes, we did that with old glintstone sets) craft some effigys, grab a tank.

3)I looted 6-7 vanity weapons so far, at one day two, which is not so bad in terms of drop rate, people just don't want to pay for the hunter lix (which is tradable). Wether this is sufficient or not for all, it is just one way of looting real farmable things. Everyone is free to give his own feedback.

About the furniture i already stated in another thread that imho the upkeep fee kills the housing demand.

4) Yes, Tanks are not optional in new maps again (and neither are the other classes) and thats a great thing.

I didn't compare it to the cake event, but gave my mixed feedback based on what we run and what we get. Everyone is free to do the same to deliver a complete picture to sts.