Its time we Balance | Evolution of weapons

[Thewolfbull]

I disagree on two levels.
1) Class balance is not determined on the basses of if a specific class is excluded from runs. (The issue with exclusion of mage and warrior from being called for end game raids was not resolved with class balance, it does not exist anymore because they removed gold from there)
2) Class balance affects PVP and damage based runs (for example Raid LB) - players are not speaking about it anymore because there are no actions taken for all the outstanding discussions that are already available on the forum.

But you are entitled to your opinion as I am

Class balance isn't the problem in PvE it's the maps that are the problem. Raids are endgame maps right now and tanks are useless there. With mages close behind, but in mauso 5-6 all 3 classes are needed so that proves it's not a class balance problem it's to easy/only single target maps with easily avoidable red zones (raids) that's the problem.

They almost got raid right with infested swamp raid tanks needed to taunt to stop the one shots on rogues/mages, mages needed op staff procs and rogue was needed at the end to finish off the boss before everyone died. Until people realized you can just use 2 glowstick AAs to stop dying so that leaves tank useless and then mage procs were nerfed which made them useless too so now 4 rogue parties are the best way to run every raid ingame. And the only other map at 71 is deep marsh which only opens once per week oh and i can solo it on my rogue with legendary gear because it's to easy.

PvP is another problem altogether tanks need a way to get kills against rogues. Mages need a way to kill tanks and rogues need to be less op against all 3 classes. Also i tried PvP with my rogue with legendary weapon and free mire gear and got 16 kills the first match.. While i struggle to get 10 kills in 2 hours on my tank that is pretty much max geared.

[slaaayerrr]

PvP is another problem altogether tanks need a way to get kills against rogues. Mages need a way to kill tanks and rogues need to be less op against all 3 classes. Also i tried PvP with my rogue with legendary weapon and free mire gear and got 16 kills the first match.. While i struggle to get 10 kills in 2 hours on my tank that is pretty much max geared.

YOUR problem that u cant complete ur pvp aps same fast as rogues, pvp doesnt have any disbalance, its only about that rogues getting all kills and all deaths
so its problem about that warriors and mages dont getting rewards for their efforts
and easiest way to solve that will be add assists to pvp, and make those assists counts for pvp aps also (i mean pvp aps should look like 10k kills/assists, but not only kills)

[Screenshotz]

YOUR problem that u cant complete ur pvp aps same fast as rogues, pvp doesnt have any disbalance, its only about that rogues getting all kills and all deaths
so its problem about that warriors and mages dont getting rewards for their efforts
and easiest way to solve that will be add assists to pvp, and make those assists counts for pvp aps also (i mean pvp aps should look like 10k kills/assists, but not only kills)

Pvp is balanced? What?

[PsychoNuke]

Well that explains a lot actually. It makes sense that the lower tier gears for Mages to have worse stats than those of Rogues and Warriors, simply because of the skills that the classes have.

If we just use gear without procs, Mages would be the best class hands down because of their skills. They have the ability to use Shield, recover Health and Mana, attack multiple enemies at once, attack a single enemy for heavy damage, slow enemies, and other stuff I am probably missing. So this explains that the gear without procs are fine to have worse stats to maintain class balance. I'm not sure if you play the Warrior class, but if you do, playing it feels extremely empty and hard until you get weapons with procs, even if the item stats are above average.

I doubt that, each class have their unique skills that make their roles stand out, mages might do good at mobs but they lack at single target damage, rogues will do good at boss but they lack at CC, and warriors should not be running alone, I mean they are tanks. And its exactly how it should be. Balance doesnt mean they all be equal at output (I said this in OP too).
Balance only means that the growth of all classes is parallel, the OP only suggests that its is not and the baseline for that growth is probably incorrect (considering only weapons in this thread). Its as simple as that.

Good procs for Mages like Flame Staff, Immo Staff, or DS, made them the best class for PvE without any contest. This was easily noticeable during the Mausoleum and Underhul times, pretty much around the times when Mages had the worst stats. So in the end we can see that when Mages had the good procs, their garbage stats didn't matter at all.

True, and we (players and sts) learnt from the mistakes of past, we dont want more banish and over powered procs. While I do blame players for keeping it quite (they were no different from the players you see on this thread who are just adding speculations to show everything is fine), I do blame devs too for not doing a fact check. I made this thread because it matters to me that all classes should be balanced, more than mage I like to see the damage gap between warrior and rogue to get a bit less, and when it comes to mage armor I only suggested 90 extra armor over the current stats.

Off Topic
If you see the threads from last year you will see I was one of the players who always said nerf flame staff, nerf DS, nerf immo we dont want to use 3 generations old weapons. Those comments are there on vrooms dev blog as well, and I got plenty of hate at that time from not only mages but warriors and rogues saying it will increase the completion time for maus. Trust me I was the happiest guy when they nerfed all old weapons for mage at level 71, feel free to check my posts and threads on forum for the last 6 months.

Now that we are finally at a place where things are getting balanced, old bugs/issues getting fixed, STS is taking measures to balance things - so we are at a very good place. Its the perfect time when class balance for pve and pvp needs to be addressed. I am adding unbiased facts to the table for discussion, you wont see any of my opinions until the conclusion of the OP, and I made sure I highlight my opinion outside the facts at the end because people have the tendency to generalize the facts.

I am not sure what people are loosing their minds about? I already have plenty of hate pms, and most of them didn't even read the OP properly, But its alright, I will just ignore them

[Thewolfbull]

YOUR problem that u cant complete ur pvp aps same fast as rogues, pvp doesnt have any disbalance, its only about that rogues getting all kills and all deaths
so its problem about that warriors and mages dont getting rewards for their efforts
and easiest way to solve that will be add assists to pvp, and make those assists counts for pvp aps also (i mean pvp aps should look like 10k kills/assists, but not only kills)

Would be good but do you really think they will do that? Lol. when i'm about to kill some rogues they leave when low hp and even that doesn't count as a kill. If they did it this way it would be great but i'm not getting my hopes up.

[V i o l e t]

As pointed out, there is no denying that with each cap, the weapons do display an increasing gap between the rogue dmg/armor and the dmg/armor of warrior and mage. I understand that the aim of the thread is not a simplified comparison of stats between the classes but it is about the gap in progression of stats for each class.

Was the spurt in rogue stats necessary? Maybe it was. This point is debatable and viewpoints may differ in the future depending on how big the gap gets and if we really need it. Damage stats alone do not decide damage output, perhaps the spurt in stats was deemed necessary by devs for rogues to work well in current zones.

Whether that gap maintains balance or topples it, depends on how it is working currently and how it would work in the future. For now, as a mage, I am not facing any hardship and would not want a buff for the mage class.

[PsychoNuke]

@Thread: Please stop the drama, this thread is not about PVE or PVP is balanced or other things.
It is about class balance and the thread is only specific to weapons, saying that the damage and armor gap between weapons are not parallel, that's all. Make a new thread if you like to discuss skills/procs etc., I would love to help you and add value to it.

Please read the OP properly, its fine if you agree or disagree its your opinion and I respect that. I thank you if you add some value to the discussion. I will report you if you create drama just to make a fuss. I think that's all I can do, thank you very much.

+
@Players who asked why variables are not considered for baselines does not understand what baselines or benchmark are, so I would kindly ask them to start from reading about those things. Feel free to PM once you understand what they are, how they are defined and what they are used for. Ty

[slaaayerrr]

Would be good but do you really think they will do that?

that will be fair

when i'm about to kill some rogues they leave when low hp and even that doesn't count as a kill.

so u still able to kill some rogues (even making them to leave pvp)... but in other threads u telling that warriors cant kill rogues and need buff

[arcanefid]

I doubt that, each class have their unique skills that make their roles stand out, mages might do good at mobs but they lack at single target damage, rogues will do good at boss but they lack at CC, and warriors should not be running alone, I mean they are tanks. And its exactly how it should be. Balance doesnt mean they all be equal at output (I said this in OP too).
Balance only means that the growth of all classes is parallel, the OP only suggests that its is not and the baseline for that growth is probably incorrect (considering only weapons in this thread). Its as simple as that.

Their single target damage is bigger than Warrior's through both Ice and the Thunder one (I don't remember their names). They also do a better job at damaging multiple enemies at once, and also do a better job at slowing down enemies.

"Warriors should not be running alone"

Mages are a support class and yet they can finish any map solo much faster than a Warrior if we don't take into account weapon procs or Pet AAs. If we include procs and AAs, then it's even worse. That statement is just wrong any way you look at it.

@Thread: Please stop the drama, this thread is not about PVE or PVP is balanced or other things.
It is about class balance and the thread is only specific to weapons, saying that the damage and armor gap between weapons are not parallel, that's all. Make a new thread if you like to discuss skills/procs etc., I would love to help you and add value to it.

Please read the OP properly, its fine if you agree or disagree its your opinion and I respect that. I thank you if you add some value to the discussion. I will report you if you create drama just to make a fuss. I think that's all I can do, thank you very much.

+
@Players who asked why variables are not considered for baselines does not understand what baselines or benchmark are, so I would kindly ask them to start from reading about those things. Feel free to PM once you understand what they are, how they are defined and what they are used for. Ty

How do you plan to properly discuss class balance and the evolution of weapons by not considering the weapons and class balance itself?

Skills and weapon procs are literally the most important things that contribute to class balance and the evolution of weapons. Ignoring these two elements completely and asking to discuss class balance doesn't make sense.

I guess this thread is just useless then, because we are not allowed to discuss anything here.

[Tuhguhbuhbuh]

Just give mages rocket launchers. Problem solved. Dvfrgrhtyjhmk!

[Thewolfbull]

that will be fair

so u still able to kill some rogues (even making them to leave pvp)... but in other threads u telling that warriors cant kill rogues and need buff

If they use the wrong pet or have very bad gear yeah ,majority of tank vs rogue is either endless fights or rogue is able to kill me while I do low dmg to them. Asked a bunch of rogues and they say no tanks can kill them in pvp.

[PsychoNuke]

As pointed out, there is no denying that with each cap, the weapons do display an increasing gap between the rogue dmg/armor and the dmg/armor of warrior and mage. I understand that the aim of the thread is not a simplified comparison of stats between the classes but it is about the gap in progression of stats for each class.

Was the spurt in rogue stats necessary? Maybe it was. This point is debatable and viewpoints may differ in the future depending on how big the gap gets and if we really need it. Damage stats alone do not decide damage output, perhaps the spurt in stats was deemed necessary by devs for rogues to work well in current zones.

Whether that gap maintains balance or topples it, depends on how it is working currently and how it would work in the future. For now, as a mage, I am not facing any hardship and would not want a buff for the mage class.

Thanks Violet, I am happy to see that people are able read and understand the OP.
And from your answer I understand that you are comfortable with the increasing gap of armor and damage because it does not affects you as a mage at present.

^This right here is all I need from this thread, if you are comfortable with it or not, if you are not then tell us what you think right values should be according to you, how much should it be balanced? lower? or higher? etc. And it will be nice if you can add an explanation on why you think it should change or not.

[PsychoNuke]

How do you plan to properly discuss class balance and the evolution of weapons by not considering the weapons and class balance itself?

Skills and weapon procs are literally the most important things that contribute to class balance and the evolution of weapons. Ignoring these two elements completely and asking to discuss class balance doesn't make sense.

I guess this thread is just useless then, because we are not allowed to discuss anything here.

This is the main problem with everyone on this thread (less with you, you are at-least trying to put some ideas and value), trying to merge components and mainly not even reading or understanding the OP properly before commenting. Its not about being allowed (I cannot stop anyone) but more about discussing it right.

None of the comments on this thread actually discussed the OP. You know what OP points out? That the three weapons are not buffed at the right proportion at every cap.
Why there is a gap between damage and armor and should it be reduced or left to be kept increasing. It projects how it will look on next 3 caps if it is not reduced.

Having the same gap on all weapon types (legendary, mythic etc), with or without procs shows that porcs does not affects it.
Skill Damage depends on Stat Damage, so how can skills be the cause? If anything, it adds to the issue that the gap between skill damage for every class is also getting increased every cap.

This thread is to understand what is a "right balance" for damage and armor gap between Rogues, Mages and Warriors to begin with. To understand if the current baseline is correct or if it needs modification, and that happens when people share their inputs. But I think I am expecting too much here, the members on this forum are not suited for it.

Hope you are able to see my stand now. Please tell me if it is hard to understand this out of OP, I would like to know if there are any kind of edits required there. I would be happy to make it more layman friendly, because man I am clueless where does half of the comments on this thread points to. People just see class balance written and start commenting blindly about whatever they feel like, sigh..

As I mentioned before lets take things one at a time. Skills will come into picture, but to have a open discussion on skills on facts we need the data (I am talking about taking baselines of skill damage of all skills of all classes on same stat damage) and I am still figuring out how I will get access to that data, I will sure need help. Right now all we have on this thread are comments with assumptions and speculations, that is just waste of time

Their single target damage is bigger than Warrior's through both Ice and the Thunder one (I don't remember their names). They also do a better job at damaging multiple enemies at once, and also do a better job at slowing down enemies.

"Warriors should not be running alone"

Mages are a support class and yet they can finish any map solo much faster than a Warrior if we don't take into account weapon procs or Pet AAs. If we include procs and AAs, then it's even worse. That statement is just wrong any way you look at it.

I agree, now apply what I said above to your comment, and tell me do you see the issue?
I think this is the part where we finally come to same page.

[arcanefid]

This is the main problem with everyone on this thread (less with you, you are at-least trying to put some ideas and value), trying to merge components and mainly not even reading or understanding the OP properly before commenting. Its not about being allowed (I cannot stop anyone) but more about discussing it right.

None of the comments on this thread actually discussed the OP. You know what OP points out? That the three weapons are not buffed at the right proportion at every cap.
Why there is a gap between damage and armor and should it be reduced or left to be kept increasing. It projects how it will look on next 3 caps if it is not reduced.

Having the same gap on all weapon types (legendary, mythic etc), with or without procs shows that porcs does not affects it.
Skill Damage depends on Stat Damage, so how can skills be the cause? If anything, it adds to the issue that the gap between skill damage for every class is also getting increased every cap.

This thread is to understand what is a "right balance" for damage and armor gap between Rogues, Mages and Warriors to begin with. To understand if the current baseline is correct or if it needs modification, and that happens when people share their inputs. But I think I am expecting too much here, the members on this forum are not suited for it.

Hope you are able to see my stand now. Please tell me if it is hard to understand this out of OP, I would like to know if there are any kind of edits required there. I would be happy to make it more layman friendly, because man I am clueless where does half of the comments on this thread points to. People just see class balance written and start commenting blindly about whatever they feel like, sigh..

As I mentioned before lets take things one at a time. Skills will come into picture, but to have a open discussion on skills on facts we need the data (I am talking about taking baselines of skill damage of all skills of all classes on same stat damage) and I am still figuring out how I will get access to that data, I will sure need help. Right now all we have on this thread are comments with assumptions and speculations, that is just waste of time



I agree, now apply what I said above to your comment, and tell me do you see the issue?
I think this is the part where we finally come to same page.

I never really checked the stats in as much detail as you did in the OP, but I am sure I understand the point of it very well.

You started the discussion with the stats, but I am not sure if that is the correct step to start with. There are some things that I (and many others here) think you should take into account before going to the numbers, such as the roles of the class, and also the skills. I will not mention the procs this time.

If we discuss things in a different order, not starting from the numbers, we might have some findings which explain why the stats are what they are. If the Mages are the support class, then do they really need higher damage and higher armor? You mentioned that tanks shouldn't run alone, in that case we should be able to say that Mages shouldn't be running alone too, and the same for Rogues.

And the skills are still very important if you want to discuss numbers. You simply can't ignore that and go straight to the stats graphs. I understand that Skill damage is based on the stats, but you're not calculating what the skills actually do.


Let's do some extremely simplified calculations just to show what I mean:

A mage with 100 Damage stat
A rogue with 400 Damage stat
A warrior with... 50 Damage stat

If Fireball hits 6 enemies for 100 damage each or even 50 damage each, then one Fireball you cast is doing a total of 600 Damage (or 300 in the case of 50 each). If a Rogue's arrow is doing 400 Damage to one enemy, then a mage is still dealing more (or almost the same in the case of 50) damage even if their damage stats is much smaller. And this is why you can't just go straight to the numbers. I won't take any example for warriors here.

If you still think that no one is understanding the OP, or assume that we are all ignoring what you said, then I think you should definitely re-write it and make it more clear. But I also ask you to carefully read what we are saying, because no one is as off topic as you're saying they are.

Edit: I forgot to mention one other thing, since we're discussing mostly PvE here, then you should know that the three classes work together and not against each other, so my armor is your armor, and your damage is my damage. ;3

Edit 2: I am definitely comfortable with how the stats are progressing now. But I will not be comfortable when warriors become useless again because we won't be getting the TB proc all the time. :P

[slaaayerrr]

If they use the wrong pet or have very bad gear yeah

1) before u talking about pvp balance, are u sure that YOU using correct pet in pvp? we dueled how many times? 30?40? i was always using nox bolt instead of aimed, and i never see u using glowstik or nilbog in those duels for remove dot from nox (u dont even try it), there are 4-5 stacks of poison on u before u die, what u used last time? toxy or venim? why not pets which removing dot? or maybe its so hard to swap pet (in middle of fight, for example after ur jugg) in new stable which all players so liked
2) if u telling that rogues getting all kills in pvp, why u dont tell who getting all deaths there? lol
3) if rogue win u in 1v1 with score 3:0 it doesnt means that rogue dealt to u over 100k damage and u dealt 0 dmg to rogue, it means that rogue was a bit better than u 3 times (again question why balanced pvp means that warrior should easily kill rogue), most of rogues in pvp have perfect (or close to perfect) awakes, maybe u can show urs? or "balance" for u means u can buy average awakened items, go pvp (by tank) and kill everyone? your story about how u bought cheap items for ur rogue and killed all - u could see how i bought some staffs for my mage (no jewels no awakes, no pet, no shield, nothing + half of gears was dex type) and on that mage i was more usefull in maus than by my geared rogue, so which class needed to be nerfed? rogues or mages?
4) imagine teams 2warr + 1rogue vs 3 rogues... guess who will win? so it means 2 warrior stronger than 2 rogues, disbalance here, lets nerf warriors (ur logic)
5) if u are so worried about that u cant kill rogues 1v1, have u ever tried vs mage? i mean vs strong pvp mage with correct gears and skills, not those cheap mages which u see everywhere? i'm sure result will be same, so why u still about nerfing rogues if mages better in 1v1 (vs warrior, this is important for u) and still better and cheaper in maps like maus for gold farming?
6) if u are best in pve and have so much expierence - means u already best in pvp?

[PsychoNuke]

@arcanefid: Do me a forever, instead of discussing on hypothetical numbers compare the skill damage for all classes on same base damage stat. You will realize that reality is different than what you are speculating, also, each class have aoe and single target skills, so you should compere aoe skill with aoe, and single target with single target, not any skill with any skill. (I already did some homework on this but I don't have the complete data yet, bit busy)

I understand PVE interdependence but that does not mean your armor is my armor and my damage is your damage, that's only applicable if the game was designed to force party to include 1 of each class every time (like in other MMOs) .
Also I wont label the roles on classes as justification to anything, I mean if warriors are given all that armor because they are only suppose to be Tanks then Taunts are not suppose to be an option, aggro should be by default enabled on them. If Mages are suppose to be only support then they should have Utility skills more than Damage skills, buffs/debuffs for party/enemy, and other attributes like interrupts. But that's not the case for any of those classes, isnt it.

[arcanefid]

@arcanefid: Do me a forever, instead of discussing on hypothetical numbers compare the skill damage for all classes on same base damage stat. You will realize that reality is different than what you are speculating, also, each class have aoe and single target skills, so you should compere aoe skill with aoe, and single target with single target, not any skill with any skill. (I already did some homework on this but I don't have the complete data yet, bit busy)

I understand PVE interdependence but that does not mean your armor is my armor and my damage is your damage, that's only applicable if the game was designed to force party to include 1 of each class every time (like in other MMOs) .
Also I wont label the roles on classes as justification to anything, I mean if warriors are given all that armor because they are only suppose to be Tanks then Taunts are not suppose to be an option, aggro should be by default enabled on them. If Mages are suppose to be only support then they should have Utility skills more than Damage skills, buffs/debuffs for party/enemy, and other attributes like interrupts. But that's not the case for any of those classes, isnt it.

What is the point of this thread exactly?

I don't want to be rude, but you're still ignoring what everyone is saying.

[Thewolfbull]

1) before u talking about pvp balance, are u sure that YOU using correct pet in pvp? we dueled how many times? 30?40? i was always using nox bolt instead of aimed, and i never see u using glowstik or nilbog in those duels for remove dot from nox (u dont even try it), there are 4-5 stacks of poison on u before u die, what u used last time? toxy or venim? why not pets which removing dot? or maybe its so hard to swap pet (in middle of fight, for example after ur jugg) in new stable which all players so liked
2) if u telling that rogues getting all kills in pvp, why u dont tell who getting all deaths there? lol
3) if rogue win u in 1v1 with score 3:0 it doesnt means that rogue dealt to u over 100k damage and u dealt 0 dmg to rogue, it means that rogue was a bit better than u 3 times (again question why balanced pvp means that warrior should easily kill rogue), most of rogues in pvp have perfect (or close to perfect) awakes, maybe u can show urs? or "balance" for u means u can buy average awakened items, go pvp (by tank) and kill everyone? your story about how u bought cheap items for ur rogue and killed all - u could see how i bought some staffs for my mage (no jewels no awakes, no pet, no shield, nothing + half of gears was dex type) and on that mage i was more usefull in maus than by my geared rogue, so which class needed to be nerfed? rogues or mages?
4) imagine teams 2warr + 1rogue vs 3 rogues... guess who will win? so it means 2 warrior stronger than 2 rogues, disbalance here, lets nerf warriors (ur logic)
5) if u are so worried about that u cant kill rogues 1v1, have u ever tried vs mage? i mean vs strong pvp mage with correct gears and skills, not those cheap mages which u see everywhere? i'm sure result will be same, so why u still about nerfing rogues if mages better in 1v1 (vs warrior, this is important for u) and still better and cheaper in maps like maus for gold farming?
6) if u are best in pve and have so much expierence - means u already best in pvp?

There is bad and good for each pet if i use glow i do no dmg and get stunned and it's endless fight, and you can heal. Venim does dmg and stops heal. Nekro stops stun and freeze from breeze. I have tried pets and still am testing different stuff but nothing seems to work when i can't do enough dmg to get the kill.
Of course rogues get most of the deaths but it's by other rogues not tanks.
I've vsed some mages even that one u linked in video once i think to and it's endless fight 100% of time same as tank vs tank
The only way i ever kill rogue is if they run out of mana and with pets like mishi and jack and heal that never happens.
My awakens are pretty good rn not perfect but good.
I'm not best in pvp not even close.
It's just annoying how an undergeared noob rogue (me) gets random kills faster than any tank.
If you find any warrior who can kill rogues or any class consistently let me know how they do it please.
I don't want a buff on warriors I don't think that would help but a nerf on all classes armor might help so that everyone can do decent dmg to eachother.

I don't mind if tank become the class to die the most as long as we are getting some kills too

Or just change pvp kill ap so it's not just about kills and leave classes as is, It's a good idea and i hope the devs do this.

[PsychoNuke]

What is the point of this thread exactly?

I don't want to be rude, but you're still ignoring what everyone is saying.

I didn't ignore, I only said we should not use hypothetical data but actual numbers. Did I miss something?
I explained the motive of this thread on post# 53. But then your reply to that shows that you can only comprehend and add value to the OP if skills are discussed.

So I agreed to discuss it, and I was serious on last comment, I thought you can help on the warrior side, and we might need a rogue to help on that front to evaluate the skills.
Please let me know if you disagree on anything I said on previous comment and why?

[Trader]

I think the current DPS difference between the arcane weapons in the winter preview is fine. But I agree that the gap should not increasing like how it shows in those graphs, its not symmetrical. I think people don't really care about these things anymore because its all about gold loot in pve. It does matter in pvp but nobody plays it anymore.

People will only cry about class balance when there is gold involved, remember what happened in hydra that is the sad truth. People do not even remember anymore that mage get 5% and warrior get 10% damage buff on both raids. If everything is balanced that should not be there, so even devs agree that it is not balanced.
Lastly I think armor for mage should be raised by like 40, I mean that is like 2 excellent jewels.

Thanks for taking the effort to make this thread but sorry I think this thread is going to die like any other rational thing on internet.